SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge US Embassy Alerts All Americans To Depart Afghanistan "Immediately" As More Provincial Capitals Fall
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| Be not wise in thine own eyes  |
Yep, he was on vacation and left a bowl of ice cream on the counter. “We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,” Pres. Select, Joe Biden “Let’s go, Brandon” Kelli Stavast, 2 Oct. 2021 | |||
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Evening activities, coloring books, ensure and a diaper change. | |||
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Easy, most of them hadn't been paid in months. Their bosses sold-off their equipment, fuel and ammunition that was needed for those guys on the ground. Afghanistan is an agrarian culture so, if the family farm is going under or, threatened, they're outta there, regardless of job. Most of them are illiterate, thus, comprehension and cognition is very limited. Did I mention the corruption and lack of resources? The units that were hunting down Taliban were burnt-out and crushed due to overuse, sure its their country, however that small fraction was doing all the fighting...for years and years. Did I mention the illiteracy? Makes it hard to do maintenance or, anything bureaucratic like, tracking pay, funds, inventory of supplies, etc.
You're lumping EVERYBODY from O-10 to E-1 as this is THEIR fault? Are you sure you don't want to tighten up your statement and not be so generalizing? Shouldn't you also be seeking an explanation from the Senate Armed Services and their various Congressional subcommittees about why they didn't turn up the heat on military leadership for their rosey explanations of things? | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
Can't really get on the blame game wagon. This was going to end up like this no matter what, unless you want to develop bases in Afgan, and leave US military there forever like we did in Germany, this was the only possible outcome. Frankly every potus prior to BuyDems should have pulled us out of there, either go in and win, or stay the hell out of a war. All the media posturing over Biden pulling them out is BS, hell it might be planned, pull them out, watch the inevitable chaos and Taliban takeover, blame the past (Trump) and say it just shows you can't build a nation there and I'm right for pulling out.... mic drop go to camp.... Will admit it could have been done better though, remove the Embassy people, notify all Americans that are smart enough to leave, then blow up the bases, destroy equipment and leave. That country has been the downfall of many regimes attempts for centuries. Let China have them... | |||
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If this was Trump, CNN would have already had human interest pieces on the people who fell off the plane. They would interviewed them and be showing sob stories about their families and how they have been abandoned and left to die by the President. | |||
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Step by step walk the thousand mile road |
The United States military is not wholly to blame. We trained the Afghans to the ability of the majority of military aged male Afghans. The current illiteracy rate of Afghan males between 15 and 40 is 57%. Not functionally illiterate, illiterate illiterate as in can't even read and write a short, simple statement on their everyday life. This is why madrassa make students memorize the Quran, not read the Quran. The other 43% of the population meets that simple standard, with a much smaller percentage being literate enough to understand what our military has to teach and what they need to learn to defend their country. Yes, there are some excellent Afghan Special Forces units, but like our military, they are a tiny fraction of the total force structure. The rest are best suited to living in a desert, as they'd likely drown looking up at a rain storm. The understanding of Afghan illiteracy was likely the key reason the force structure the Honorable Michael G. Vickers (formerly USD(SOLIC) and USD(I)) put forth in his brilliant 1983 plan to train and equip the Mujaheddin to kill Soviets was so successful. He set out to teach and equip only about 200,000 Afghans (and actually trained and equipped even fewer) in general irregular/asymmetric warfare. He focused on training a smaller cadre of perhaps 30,000 in roughly two dozen key areas of irregular/asymmetric warfare. It was about all they could learn and apply on their own. With that raw material, do you really think we were going to create a military capable of fighting off the Taliban? To create a military and police force able to stop the Taliban would have required another 30 years and a few trillion more dollars. That would give 50 years to develop a large enough pool of literate Afghan males to stand a chance. Be clear, I have reservations that this would work ever, but if you could have driven literacy rates to 70%, there'd be enough literate males to stand a chance. Nice is overrated "It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government." Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018 | |||
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Which is exactly what the military leadership should have said from the beginning instead of allowing us to be dragged into a 20 year war. The military wants to to call themselves "professionals". Well guess what, as a professional you don't take on work you can't complete. As a "professional" its your job to know what you realistically can and can't do before you start. It isn't like they didn't make this same mistake before in Vietnam. You know I could have spotted them the first five years to figure out it was a no win situation. But 20???? Seriously, this was the fault of the military, plain in simple. To deny that is to prevent anyone in the United States from learning anything from this 20 year unmitigated disaster. | |||
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Question: Who should have known all this going into this? Answer: The military If there is one thing our military does seem to excel at it is playing the role of the victim any time someone tries to criticize them | |||
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Glorious SPAM! |
The military wasn't in charge in AFG. The politicians were. | |||
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Info Guru |
I know your username is Broadside, but you really need to be more specific. You keep saying 'military' this and that. 1. You do understand that the US military is controlled 100% by civilians. Civilian control of the military is a thing. 2. When you say 'the military should have pushed back' - Surely you mean at the Joint Chief level? You are not saying that the O3's and privates should have revolted and not followed orders? I hope you are not seriously saying that. This is 100% a political defeat. Once again, our military was ordered to do a mission that had a negative predictable outcome. Don't blame 'the military' when that implies the men and women who were on the ground, following orders and dying. That is wrong and disrespectful. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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| A teetotaling beer aficionado  |
Really! No, it wasn't going to end up like this. It was done for political reasons, not what was best. Trump wanted to withdraw, but it was going to be gradual, not GTFO in in 24 hours. Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves. -D.H. Lawrence | |||
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Official Space Nerd |
Wow, better add some Political Science books to your reading list, if you actually think the military chooses where, when, and how the US wields military power. . . Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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I have. And the military, with the trillions of dollars that we spend on them, is supposed to know what we should and shouldn't do and be able to advise our political leaders on the correct course of action. They didn't do that and they failed at their job. | |||
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No, mbinky, it was the military that was in charge in Afghanistan. | |||
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Actually I do, BamaJeepster. Over a 20 year period plenty military members went over there and saw what was happening and plenty could have come back and said Afghanistan was failing and we should leave. This war lasted through two Republican administrations and two Democratic administrations. The one constant was the military. To give the military a pass on this is not being honest with what happened. Edit: Let me try to put this another way that people might understand better. If you are not willing to admit to your mistakes and failures, then you can't learn from them. And that is the greatest crime of all. If the U.S. Military is not willing to accept its responsibility for the failure of Afghanistan then the 4,096 American lives lost and the $2 trillion dollars spent over the past 18 years will truly have been for nothing. | |||
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I just got back in July. I worked with SOF on the medical side. Today in Hkia the docs and nurses stood up drew weapons to defend the hospital. This is coming from a surgeon I know and worked with. It is gonna get out of control. | |||
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| Banned |
You’ve got some pretty strong opinions. A lot of us did exactly that, but no one listened. Help me understand your perspective and expertise a little, please? What roles did you play during the 20 years of war and what is your field of expertise? Can you give me a snap shot of what your CV is? Some context would be helpful. | |||
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| Info Guru |
Every single person I know who served in Afghanistan said exactly that. Politicians ran and were elected based on getting out of Afghanistan. Where have you heard otherwise? What was step 2 in your program? Step one - have returning military say the mission was garbage and that the Afghani military would never be able to stand on it's on. That was done, what was your step 2? Are you sure you understand the concept that the military is 100% controlled by civilians in the US? Are you aware that it is actually illegal for US service members to criticize the political leadership, even after they retire? What was step 2 in your program? “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
Maybe we could all agree that when laying blame on the 'military', we're REALLY talking about the uppermost leadership of the military, as in those wearing Stars, many of whom are located in the Pentagon, including the Joint Chiefs. While we are all well aware of the fact that we have a civilian directed/led military, it's the leadership of the military that advise the Commander-in-Chief. I would agree with many that the 'military leadership' has failed massively in it's responsibility to 'properly advise' our political leaders, and that they DO Bear a significant part of the responsibility for the U.S. remaining in Afghanistan for 20 years! That said, it was all done with the approval of, and as a result of policy decisions by multiple US Presidents! I believe we can all agree that the enlisted personnel and lower level officers/field commanders have all gone well above and beyond, in both their performance and their sacrifice in service to our nation. They deserve nothing but our respect and gratitude! That said, I couldn't help but notice that over the past nearly 24 hours, many have taken offense to ANY blame pointed at the military. Further, this has opened old wounds for some, which are the result seemingly unnecessary loss of their fellow warriors, which more and more seems all for naught. This is extremely unfortunate and certainly not the intention of those that have been pointing fingers. Though I'm sure it affects you personally, please know NONE of this should reflect personally on any of you. ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| Never miss an opportunity to be Batman!  |
Here is a brief update on the US Constitution and how our system of government works: Who is the Commander In Chief? A civilian. Who is the Secretary of Defense? Yep, another civilian. The Military can give advice, if the civilian leaders don't follow it and give other orders, the Military leadership has two choices: 1. follow the orders or 2. Resign. They can also disobey a lawful order but that will end up in a Court Martial, prison time and a Dishonorable Discharge. The government (President and some input from Congress) sets policy and national strategy. It is up the the military to implement that policy.....which is ALWAYS constantly changing and usually ignores the troops on the ground and reality of what is happening. Damn near every troop I have met or served with said the same thing on Afghanistan: a blind paraplegic man would have a better chance herding cats in the Super Dome. The Military has been telling the Civilian Leaders for decades that: 1. The Afghan troops are useless. Hell, just trying to teach them how to do jumping jacks was ultimate exercise in futility. Most of the ones with a brain were either corrupt or Taliban plants. If you wanted to bring democracy to Afghanistan it would have taken 50-100 years of intense education and spending, along with a couple of real Afghan leaders. 2. The Iraqi troops were useless (but not as bad as the Afghans). 3. The Kurds were good fighters for the most part. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge US Embassy Alerts All Americans To Depart Afghanistan "Immediately" As More Provincial Capitals Fall
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