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Personally, I believe that motorcycle ridership in general is sharply on the decline and the reason is specifically because of distracted driving.

Yep. Been an avid rider since I was a teenager. When it wasn't raining, there were times where months would go by without my ever having driven something with more than two wheels. Loved to simply ride. Then I started avoiding riding in the city. But about 10 or so years back, riding into work on a near deserted road, some dingbat left turned in front of me. Totaled the bike. I was lucky to have nothing broken.

Few months later, got back on the horse and bought another. Took the MUCH better half on a ride to the hill country. On a bridge miles away from even a small town, some bubble head blonde in a Jeep crosses the center line and heads right for us. Phone at the 12 o'clock on the wheel. Texting away. Finally looks up and swerves, missing us by less than 2 feet. Once my heart rate recovered, rode back to the hotel, parked and covered the bike. Then we took her car and went and hung out in the wine bar in Comfort. Sold the bike soon after and no desire for another. On occasion I think maybe I'll try again. That's usually when I come upon a wreck on my commute where someone has rear ended a bike. Then the desire goes away.

Stuck a fork in it 6 years ago, I miss it a lot less than I ever thought I would. Distracted drivers and 1-5 per week news reports of another 50-YO + taken out, made the decision, rather easy.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: downtownv,

I wrote a paper about Harley in college. They and IIRC, CorningWare glass were not able to compete with overseas manufactures in the lates 70s and early 80s and were in danger of folding. New management, new product and improving the quality saved them both—-then. Where I live, there is a fairly large Harley dealer and where I grew up. But, I agree that younger riders like the bullet bikes better. Saturday, going up the canyon for fishing, my boys and I got passed by a large group of college age kids on crotch rockets. Coming back down the canyon, we got cutoff by a large group of Harley Riders. The youngest in this group appeared to be at least in their late 40s. They were an organized club so maybe that was the difference. The one commonality is that they all rode like a bunch of idiots. The kids were weaving in and out of traffic threading the needle between cars (one nearly took my left mirror off). The older guys were just as dumb. They were trying to come out of a park and didn’t want to wait for my group of vehicles so they all punched it and cut us off. Every car, including mine. had to slam on the breaks, ABS and all, to not hit them. A truck in front of me, pulling a boat nearly didn’t stop in time and I thought he was going to lose his boat or jackknife.

Edited to add: I grew up riding motorcycles. I still have a Honda. It's a dual sport that I rarely ride on the streets because of distracted drivers. My oldest brother was nearly killed last week by a driver who cut him off. He got off "easy " with only a conclusion, (knocked unconscious), collapsed lung, broken ribs, and a broken scapula. I think that is why bike riding is down too. Distracted driving. Why buy a bike when there are other fun transportation options that aren't as dangerous to use as a street bike? SxS are the new street bikes where I live.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BB61,

Poor dealership service, image, and pricing their bikes too high for the market. Used Harleys are cheap and plentiful around here.

Ha, "Their best seller is a giant mobility scooter"

I do want a bike again but it still scares the shit out of me. I definitely wouldn't be riding it to work, weekends only. Seven broken ribs and a permanently separated shoulder, after minivan mom pulled out in front of me. That bike had ABS which I think helped slow me down enough to where I flew 25 feet instead of 100

When your bread and butter is image and nostalgia, and not product features or technological superiority, and this appeal is nearly limited to a demographic that is aging out, you've got a problem.

I could summarize that presentation with two words: "Market saturation" and complete the summary with "dying customer base"

Stupid shit they've done to alienate potential customers hasn't helped. Did they really think the long term solution was attempting patenting the sound of a V Twin, or trade protections? Those things just screamed of they've thrown in the towel, and we can't compete in design and innovation.

They've had their heyday. Possibly the span only made possible by artificial means. In a way I was made painfully aware of it when I saw the feeble attempts of a salesman extolling the virtues of Sportster vs a CB750 Honda in 1970 or so. The dealers have always seemed to me to be arrogant a-holes. I'm sorry and embarrassed that a once great American company never had a coherent plan to ensure long term success.

I can remember when American bike rallies used to feature destroying Japanese bikes for entertainment. When you look at the values of some of the vintage Japanese bikes of the 1960s and 1970s vs what some HDs of the past few decades, the opposite situation is now possible. I never understood why HD owners had such a staunch preference that they wouldn't even associate with anybody else. Never understood why they cared so much about what somebody else rode or enjoyed.

Lack of innovation. Greedy Dealers with lousy Service.Fanbase now in their 70's.

I thought the video was dumb. turned it off after a few minutes. I have not read all the posts. GW's post is how I see it in many ways. HD lots it way in many aspects. Providing a quality product and service at an affordable and sustainable place went away for big, blotted, fancy dealerships that kept the real Harley people away.

As a millenial I agree with what was stated in the video. There are a few reasons my generation is killing motorcycling in general, and Harley in particular.

1) There is a strong association with overweight, aging, men who believe in "traditional values." Say what you want about millenials, we generally don't believe in the 1950s ideal. Our gut reaction when we hear "Harley" isn't one we went to emulate.

2) Virtually no emphasis on environmental, safety, or humanitarian concerns. I've seen dozens of Harley ads with riders not wearing helmets. I've never seen one where they proudly supported someone in need. You can disagree with me calling this "nonsense", "loud pipes save lives", and "that's all marketing BS" but it works to attract my generation.

3) We're poor. As a generation we have less disposable income than Gen-X or boomers. We have five and six figures of college debt. We increasingly live in apartments with limited parking. $10,000 for a toy is still a lot to spend.

4) The lifecycle costs of motorcycles are high, and increasing. Between growing insurance costs (you can thank fewer helmet laws for that), growing maintenance costs, parking, taxes, etc., it's not the cheap transportation alternative it used to be. When we need a cheap ride, we use Uber.

The "I can't text and ride" argument is however, garbage. It's not reflecting by other increases in spending habits like on bicycles or other sports equipment. Yes, we like our smartphones. But we also use them to explore the activities we enjoy.

We are however *very* aware of the risks of distracted driving. As a cyclist my #1 fear is a mom in her SUV. Instead, I, along with tens of thousands of other cyclists, prefer riding off the beaten path such as on dirt roads, backcountry roads, or hiking paths. Motorcycle sales seem to reflect the same thing with "adventure" bike sales going up. It's fun to go camp out somewhere and modern ultralight equipment makes that significantly easier. But it's also way safer and less stressful than weaving in and out of traffic. In a way, it's more "Easy Rider" than "Hog Boys" or whatever Harley has turned into.

And branching into electrics isn't going to save them unless they have *one* killer product. And they don't. It's one thing to make a CAD model. It's another to be taken seriously by riders and reviewers.

E-bikes are being dominated by billion dollar bicycle companies like Giant, Dorel, and Merida because they have more institutional knowledge about lightweight, high performance manufacturing than more than a few aviation and space programs -- and that's not an exaggeration. E-bikes are all about efficiency and weight, and when your human capital is welders and machinists it's hard to convert that to carbon fiber specialists or electronics installers. And they're entering into a landscape where the patent landscape looks like a DMZ. You can't have a thought without someone saying, "Yeah, I did that 30 years ago. It'll cost you many zeros to use it."

So is their goose cooked? Maybe. They might just need to scale down operations and run more like a boutique shop. The answer might be "less is more." Want to build an American bike? Build the perfect American bike. Be the Ed Brown or Nighthawk in a world of Glocks. Have one or two core models and work with customers to build their perfect bike out of the factory. Establish relationships between the fabricators and the customers. Those are important to people like me -- I email the person who built three of my custom bicycles every so often. The fact he responds is why I have three of his bicycles. There are ways out, but I don't think they're quite ready to take them. And likely neither are many people my age.

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4) The lifecycle costs of motorcycles are high, and increasing. Between growing insurance costs (you can thank fewer helmet laws for that), growing maintenance costs, parking, taxes, etc.

That's Bull Shit you write. Motorcycle helmet laws have nothing to do with Motorcycle insurance rates.

As you posted, too - your Poor! So don't make more feeble excuses why you can not own a Motorcycle.

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However, I was really impressed at the quality of the video, shot by non-professionals and rendered on a PC for YouTube. Really impressive work.

Yep... I agree.
I don't know enough about the subject to critique the content, but well done video.

yea Can, that is utter and complete bullshit! All of it.

Btw, boomers did not have a lot of money at the current age of the so called Mills. They were busy working their ass off, raising families and making the economy of this nation hum.

But you are right about one thing. You have no respect for "traditional values" of the American way.

I have a niece who could of wrote that and she will never have anything and accomplish anything worthwhile like many who think like you two.

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Originally posted by GWbiker:

That's Bull Shit you write. Motorcycle helmet laws have nothing to do with Motorcycle insurance rates.

I'm sorry, do your loud pipes save lives?

I'm not sure what I said was BS.

Helmet laws and insurance rates:
https://coverhound.com/insuran...le-insurance-premium. Links to IIHS and CDC from the article.
"In 2013, the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI), a part of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, discovered that when helmet laws are relaxed in a state, deaths and injuries from motorcycle crashes increase.

Insurance rates rising in non-helmet required states
For example, in Michigan, drivers were forced to wear motorcycle helmets for more than four decades, but when the state eased up on the helmet laws and made it only mandatory for riders 21 and under - insurance rates went up significantly. The state actually made it a requirement to have at least $200,000 in medical coverage on their motorcycle insurance if they plan to ride without a helmet. For most riders, that amount of coverage would likely raise their insurance rate.

Additionally, the agency discovered that Michigan motorcycle insurers' losses were 51 percent more when the helmet law changed in 2012. In 2010, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control found that when riders use motorcycle helmets, motorcycle insurance companies saved more than $3 billion."

Millenials and income:
https://www.pewsocialtrends.or...h-prior-generations/
"While young adults in general do not have much accumulated wealth, Millennials have slightly less wealth than Boomers did at the same age. The median net worth of households headed by Millennials (ages 20 to 35 in 2016) was about $12,500 in 2016, compared with $20,700 for households headed by Boomers the same age in 1983. Median net worth of Gen X households at the same age was about $15,100."


As for me personally, I can easily afford a motorcycle. I don't have one because the risk doesn't seem to be worth the reward. Maybe if I was back out west and could take a dirt bike on backroads it would be a different story, but I don't want a close encounter with an under-slept mom behind the wheel of a Tahoe. So yes, in that sense my risk aversion values are probably a bit different than past generations.

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Originally posted by SgtGold:

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Originally posted by GWbiker:

That's Bull Shit you write. Motorcycle helmet laws have nothing to do with Motorcycle insurance rates.

I'm sorry, do your loud pipes save lives?

Well if you paid attention he's on a BMW, so.....

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Originally posted by SgtGold:

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:

That's Bull Shit you write. Motorcycle helmet laws have nothing to do with Motorcycle insurance rates.

I'm sorry, do your loud pipes save lives?

Owwwww, here comes the thread drift..

I watched the video as I do most of Fortnine's stuff. I don't know how much of their past strategy or political maneuvering has contributed to their current situation, however, I do know they have nothing that I want to ride. For some background, I'm 53 and not at all opposed to some nostalgic looking bikes. I particularly am attracted to the Triumph Speed Twin or Royal Enfield Interceptor 650. I am not, however, attracted to an 800 pound behemoth that looks like something my great grandfather could have ridden around. I really think if they want to survive, they need to turn their attention to lighter, more agile bikes with modern styling and smaller displacement. Retro is cool, and most everyone is doing it. But not so retro.

The obnoxiousness factor of Harley riding is a definite turnoff to many people my age. We're the generation that loves Teslas that make practically no sound.

And unlike helmet laws, "loud pipes save lives" has generally been disproven.
https://www.spauldinginjurylaw...es-saves-lives-myth/

One thing that millennials do fairly regularly is ask for sources and citations. So if someone says something that sounds controversial, we'll immediately pull our our beloved smartphones and do our best to fact check it. It's not perfect, but it can quickly dispel many myths. And as a side effect, it affects the credibility and trust we have in that person or source.

I'm no fan of open pipes, or any bike that's overly loud, but you're using ambulance chasers as your source?

For the past 30 some years, I've hard the same BS about loud pipes on a Harley. Someone will whine about a HD rumbling by for 30 seconds, then go blast a gas powered leaf blower for hours on a Saturday morning.

Then comes the same BS about helmet law/insurance claims. And from a poster in Virginia, where, contrary to FCC regulations, a simple radio receiver (Radar Detector) is deemed illegal.