2000z-71's post over in "Pitch Your Bitch" prompted me to post this and ask for opinions.

I haven't been busted for speeding since I was 18 young dumb and full of cum. This is more just for my own understanding of the way things work in the commonwealth.

In PA Code Title 75 Chapter 33 Subchapter F §3368 Section C Paragraph 4

It states
"(4) No person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraphs (2) and (3) unless the speed recorded is six or more miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit. Furthermore, no person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3) in an area where the legal speed limit is less than 55 miles per hour if the speed recorded is less than ten miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit. This paragraph shall not apply to evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (2) or (3) within a school zone or an active work zone."

I read this to mean if the officer is using a radar or lidar gun (chapter 2) or a vascar or equivalent method (chapter 3) there is an implied grace period of 10 mph (below 55 posted) and 5 mph (above 55 posted) except in work and school zones or if the officer is pacing you (Paragraph 1)

What say those working in the field or better versed in Legalese than myself?

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/W.../LI/CT/HTM/75/75.HTM

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/c...33&sctn=68&subsctn=0

Assuming you've identified the speed measurement methods/equipment in each of the referenced paragraphs correctly, yes. That's what it means. Although I wouldn't necessarily call it a "grace period". There's no prohibition on being cited and the speed limit is still the speed limit. Assuming PA Code Title 75 Chapter 33 Subchapter F §3368 Section C Paragraph 4 is the only statute under which you can be cited for a speeding violation, fine, but your speed can likely also contribute as an element to other moving violations (i.e., reckless driving, etc.), so it could certainly still be relevant and there's no indication that evidence is not admissible.

That's about as straight forward as it gets, BTW, language-wise.

So how fast were you going?

-Rob

It isn't a "grace" limit. You just can't be convicted on the evidence of those machines alone. Obviously, they don't trust those machines for speeding of just a few miles over the limit. I don't know if they really aren't that accurate, but the lege thinks so.

If you get pulled over for less than 10 over >55MPH, you just have shitty luck.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
It isn't a "grace" limit. You just can't be convicted on the evidence of those machines alone. Obviously, they don't trust those machines for speeding of just a few miles over the limit. I don't know if they really aren't that accurate, but the lege thinks so.

Which is why in almost every single Court Case the officer is allowed to state he estimated the offenders speed at such and such and then triggered his speed detector to confirm it.

Note, there have been double blind tests done concerning whether an officer can actually estimate a speed with any accuracy and every time some ambition lawyer tries to get this entered into the record it is immediately rejected by the Court. So, Officers are still assumed to have some magical ability to estimate speed visually and Courts still accept this testimony as a Gold Standard. Basically the decks are stacked against you and that won't change unless the funds produced by these citations provide zero benefit at all to the Court or Agency charged with enforcing speed limits. To be blunt it's all about the MONEY and nothing else.

A certified Radar operator in NC;
has to first make an opinion of the suspect's speed,
the Radar/Lidar/vascar merely verifies the operator's opinion.

An officer can be trained to very very accurate about speeds of a moving vehicle...to down to within 1-2 mph...

Here in NC the officer has to take a 40 hr class...
then spend 16 hours with an already trained operator (on the exact instrument he is seeking certification on) The hours of training can increased based on instrument abilities..ie same lane, opposite, and you have to be a Radar operator as a prerequisite to take the Vascar or Lidar instruments...

so it's the operator who says how fast you are going

Those are the answers I was looking for!

Especially the posts about the officer estimating speed and the devices merely backing up the suspicion.

I'm not a lawyer or well versed so the way my "lay" mind read those paragraphs implied there was a grace limit written in the code. Obviously those devices are pretty damn accurate but everything can wiggle in And out of tolerances.

And I was actually being honest about not getting nabbed. I am a highway engineer and there are a couple things that reference back to Title 75 and I was slow at work and I just read through a lot of different sections and this caught my eye.

Thank you all.

Real po-leeece don't need no stinkin' radar

yep. As Chongo says:

I had to suffer through both the 40 hour Radar Cert. Course and another similar ordeal for LIDAR.
I did ride with an OSP Trooper Instructor for the "speed visual estimation" potion of the course. He was good, usually within + or - 5 MPH.
I did not write a single LIDAR ticket, since it required me to sit like a lump in a fixed position in order to make a pinch.
It made a great range finder.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
It isn't a "grace" limit. You just can't be convicted on the evidence of those machines alone. Obviously, they don't trust those machines for speeding of just a few miles over the limit. I don't know if they really aren't that accurate, but the lege thinks so.

Which is why in almost every single Court Case the officer is allowed to state he estimated the offenders speed at such and such and then triggered his speed detector to confirm it.

Note, there have been double blind tests done concerning whether an officer can actually estimate a speed with any accuracy and every time some ambition lawyer tries to get this entered into the record it is immediately rejected by the Court. So, Officers are still assumed to have some magical ability to estimate speed visually and Courts still accept this testimony as a Gold Standard. Basically the decks are stacked against you and that won't change unless the funds produced by these citations provide zero benefit at all to the Court or Agency charged with enforcing speed limits. To be blunt it's all about the MONEY and nothing else.

It wouldn't be hard to get those studies in evidence, but who can afford hiring a researcher to come to court and testify about the experiments in speed estimating abilities for a $200 traffic ticket? It would cost thousands to get that testimony.

In PA, us local cops are the only cops in the entire United States NOT, repeat NOT allowed to use RADAR to write speeding citations.

But yes, it's not a grace period on the other methods, but it's stupid to write a citation for a few miles over the posted speed limit, bcasue of the statute you posted.

I haven't written a speeding citation in quite a few years, but I would give +15 before I pulled you over, unless it was in a school zone or you were driving like an idiot.

In my town we have 25, 35 and 45 miles zones. The school is located in one of the 25 miles zones, so it drops down to 15 miles a few times a day.

Steve,

I have always thought it was crazy that only the State Boys get to use radar. I thought I heard there was a bill introduced relatively recently to allow the rest of the departments to use it? Granted the way our legislature operates it's probably bogged down somewhere.....