^^the ATF provides free of charge an online computer program that does inventory, serial number, management tool, etc.
most FFLs jump onboard with it because it makes it easy when they get inspected.

Now I’m not a conspiracy theory guy- but I’d be surprised if the ATF can’t snoop into that program w/o the shops allowing it.

^^^NOT any of my FFLs! The only Transfer I've ever done in any such computerized system was a purchase at the SIG Academy Pro Shop. I choose my FFLs wisely!

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
The government claiming that by renting a table at a gun show to sell or liquidate firearms suddenly changes the nature of a person’s interest in firearms is exactly bullshit. Of course the government won’t arrest someone for that at the gun show, instead they’ll send an assassination team to break the person’s door down at 6:00am and kill them.

For those unaware or who think this comment is hyperbole, this is a reference to the recent execution of Bryan Malinowski as discussed in the following thread.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/3370039705

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Exactly how/when do you think they're getting the data? Unless the FFL goes out of business, the ATF does NOT have any data w/ SN's, or any other identifying data re: the firearm from the 4473. And the NICS check only identifies whether the Transfer is for a handgun, a long gun, or other, such as a receiver.

ATF can go look at the books if they want to see if someone has been buying or disposing of firearms. I’ve done it myself. Cooperation is essentially a condition of the FFL. I can honestly say that I’ve never gone on a pure fishing expedition, where I wasn’t looking specifically for information about someone that was prohibited, or bought a gun and within a month the gun was recovered in a crime possessed by someone other than the original purchaser, or things like that. However, I left ATF as a whistleblower, having reported improper and potentially unlawful conduct, over 2 years ago so maybe they are going on fishing expeditions now. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is data mining going on nowadays.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
For those unaware or who think this comment is hyperbole, this is a reference to the recent execution of Bryan Malinowski as discussed in the following thread.

https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...0601935/m/3370039705

They operate on "guilty until proven innocent" principle. But, you won't have a chance to prove anything, because they'll carry out the sentence, before you even have a chance to put on your short.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
ATF can go look at the books if they want to see if someone has been buying or disposing of firearms.

Under PA law, handgun transfers must be facilitated through an FFL dealer. Similar to a retail sale, the the seller's name as well as the make, model & serial number of the firearm is recorded in the shop's bound acquisition/disposition book. Of course, the prospective buyer is required to complete a NICS background check. Do I understand correctly that non-licensed sellers who engage in transfers of this type can come under scrutiny even though the sale/transfer has been facilitated through a licensed FFL dealer? Thank you for the clarification.

quote:

Originally posted by hjs157:

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
ATF can go look at the books if they want to see if someone has been buying or disposing of firearms.

Under PA law, handgun transfers must be facilitated through an FFL dealer. Similar to a retail sale, the the seller's name as well as the make, model & serial number of the firearm is recorded in the shop's bound acquisition/disposition book. Of course, the prospective buyer is required to complete a NICS background check. Do I understand correctly that non-licensed sellers who engage in transfers of this type can come under scrutiny even though the sale/transfer has been facilitated through a licensed FFL dealer? Thank you for the clarification.

Here’s an example of how it works. 17 year old Billy Badass is arrested for a homicide of a rival gang member, and at the time of arrest the gun he was carrying is traced. It turns out that John Doe was the original purchaser of Billy Badass’s HiPoint pistol, and Mr. Doe purchased that pistol about 25 days before Mr. Badass was arrested with it. The local ATF office goes to every gun dealer in the area, asks to either look at the bound book, or asks for a list of every transaction involving John Doe. It turns out that John Doe purchased 5 identical HiPoint pistols in the last 6 months. In this case it wouldn’t matter if John Doe bought all those pistols directly from the dealer or whether the dealer just facilitated a transfer. By checking the bound books of dealers and keying in on John Doe’s name, they were able to tell that John Doe acquired those firearms.

That’s how the system is supposed to work. Those are the type of circumstances that I would request records from dealers, to make sure that there’s not someone directly supplying underage gang members with firearms to commit homicides with. Under the new “crime gun intelligence” blanket there’s nothing that would prevent ATF from using those same methods to conduct fishing expeditions, and it’s a big part of why I left the agency, especially when I discovered that my Special Agent in Charge was having intel folks set up information sharing between state and local agencies under ATF supplied software. Said software shared trace information for firearms across all participating agencies. This is most certainly a violation of the spirit of the Tihart amendment which prevents ATF from sharing trace information with other agencies for firearms that they did not actually trace.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^^Exactly how/when do you think they're getting the data? Unless the FFL goes out of business, the ATF does NOT have any data w/ SN's, or any other identifying data re: the firearm from the 4473. And the NICS check only identifies whether the Transfer is for a handgun, a long gun, or other, such as a receiver.

For sales of two or more handguns to the same purchaser in a period of 5 business days, FFLs are required to fill out in triplicate Form 3310.4 which records all of that information. The ATF gets a copy of the form, so there’s one way.

Form 3310.12 is used for multiple rifles, but this only applies to FFLs in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, and California for semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines in calibers greater than .22, like .223 Remington.

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

Here’s an example of how it works. 17 year old Billy Badass is arrested for a homicide of a rival gang member, and at the time of arrest the gun he was carrying is traced. It turns out that John Doe was the original purchaser of Billy Badass’s HiPoint pistol, and Mr. Doe purchased that pistol about 25 days before Mr. Badass was arrested with it. The local ATF office goes to every gun dealer in the area, asks to either look at the bound book, or asks for a list of every transaction involving John Doe. It turns out that John Doe purchased 5 identical HiPoint pistols in the last 6 months. In this case it wouldn’t matter if John Doe bought all those pistols directly from the dealer or whether the dealer just facilitated a transfer. By checking the bound books of dealers and keying in on John Doe’s name, they were able to tell that John Doe acquired those firearms.

In PA, Billy Badass would not have been able to legally obtain the firearm due to his age and therefore his inability to pass the NICS check. Consider this example. John Doe sells one of his 5 identical HiPoint pistols to 35 year old Larry Lawful who successfully completes the NICS check as part of a legal transfer facilitated through a licensed PA FFL dealer. Billy Badass later steals the weapon from Larry Lawful's camp in the commission of a burglary and it is recovered in the course of a murder investigation. A subsequent trace reveals that John Doe, a non-licensed individual, sold the pistol to Larry Lawful through a licensed PA FFL dealer. Under the new rule change, would John Doe be considered a non-licensed dealer "engaged in the business" of selling firearms? In a discussion yesterday at my LGS, the question arose whether or not this type of transfer by a non-licensed individual (even though it was facilitated through an FFL dealer) would be inconsistent with the rule change. While the rule change "expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes", other language in the text of the final rule seems to contradict this statement. While the repeated purchase and sale of identical HiPoints would almost certainly raise a flag, there are however plenty of collectors, hobbyists and hunters who perhaps "more than occasionally" legally purchase and legally dispose of their firearms. The boys at the shop yesterday were in complete disagreement whether or not these individuals fall within the scope of new licensing requirement. Thoughts?

I don't believe the goal of a database is solely to identify make/model/serial# to an individual, though that would be a major long term goal towards the ultimate goal of confiscating every gun owned by a peaceable citizen.

It is nearly as effective to merely have a list of names of those who are within the community of gun owners, without knowing which guns they currently own. Being on this list can become the pretense of probable cause or reasonable suspicion in the future. We know the leftist zealots will abuse any rule to their favor.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Being on this list can become the pretense of probable cause or reasonable suspicion in the future. We know the leftist zealots will abuse any rule to their favor.

Or, more to the point, being used to justify no-knock entry tactics that have an enormous potential for causing great harm to the innocent.

quote:

Originally posted by hjs157:


In PA, Billy Badass would not have been able to legally obtain the firearm due to his age and therefore his inability to pass the NICS check. Consider this example. John Doe sells one of his 5 identical HiPoint pistols to 35 year old Larry Lawful who successfully completes the NICS check as part of a legal transfer facilitated through a licensed PA FFL dealer. Billy Badass later steals the weapon from Larry Lawful's camp in the commission of a burglary and it is recovered in the course of a murder investigation. A subsequent trace reveals that John Doe, a non-licensed individual, sold the pistol to Larry Lawful through a licensed PA FFL dealer. Under the new rule change, would John Doe be considered a non-licensed dealer "engaged in the business" of selling firearms? In a discussion yesterday at my LGS, the question arose whether or not this type of transfer by a non-licensed individual (even though it was facilitated through an FFL dealer) would be inconsistent with the rule change. While the rule change "expressly recognizes that individuals who purchase firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or a legitimate hobby are permitted by the GCA to occasionally buy and sell firearms for those purposes", other language in the text of the final rule seems to contradict this statement. While the repeated purchase and sale of identical HiPoints would almost certainly raise a flag, there are however plenty of collectors, hobbyists and hunters who perhaps "more than occasionally" legally purchase and legally dispose of their firearms. The boys at the shop yesterday were in complete disagreement whether or not these individuals fall within the scope of new licensing requirement. Thoughts?

I can’t really speak with authority or experience on the proposed new rules since I left ATF over 2 years ago. Having said that, I think based upon what I’m seeing from the agency now, yeah, I think they’re going after John Doe. It will also depend on what the US Attorney’s Office thinks as well and that absolutely varies depending upon what part of the country you’re in.

Yet the ATF is ensuring every mop head has a fully automatic Glock and is doing NOTHING about it.

In fact, it seems they are the ones encouraging it.

Don't tell me they are, because when you check the arrest records, they are being released on signature bonds while airport managers are being gunned down by an army of agents in raids.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
^^the ATF provides free of charge an online computer program that does inventory, serial number, management tool, etc.
most FFLs jump onboard with it because it makes it easy when they get inspected.

Now I’m not a conspiracy theory guy- but I’d be surprised if the ATF can’t snoop into that program w/o the shops allowing it.

No, they don't.

They have an electronic 4473 program. I have never seen a dealer use it. It is a standalone desktop application that does what a fillable PDF does. It doesn't handle your bound book and it doesn't provide compliant storage. Forms completed in this software either need to be printed and stored in hardcopy or stored electronically using an ATF compliant method. The software doesn't even integrate with NICS.

There are a variety of software packages by private companies that are designed to manage the dealer's bound book, do electronic 4473s, integrate with point of sale, inventory, customer relations management, etc. These are largely monthly subscription programs that provide ATF compliant cloud storage. Preventing errors that would be an issue in an audit by automating and integrating processes are the advertised benefits of most of these applications.

In reality, most dealers are using paper forms and a paper bound book. The ATF's electronic storage requirements are very stringent compared to just saving the paper forms.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:


They have an electronic 4473 program. I have never seen a dealer use it.

I would say more do than don't around these parts.
Though it's irrelevant now, having to deal with the state as an intermediary (who can make their own li$t$).

quote:

Originally posted by cas:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:


They have an electronic 4473 program. I have never seen a dealer use it.

I would say more do than don't around these parts.
Though it's irrelevant now, having to deal with the state as an intermediary (who can make their own li$t$).

The actual program from the ATF, or just an electronic 4473 of some sort? Most electronic 4473 applications I have seen have been commercially available software like I described or even just typing in and printing a PDF.

If your dealer is having you do the 4473 on a tablet, for example, it is most likely a third party application and not the ATF's program.

It has been a couple of weeks since the ATF released their final rule on "Engaging in the business of selling firearms"

It is over 400 pages and leaves the door open to the ATF to decide who to charge or bring a lawsuit against when they sale a firearm.. The ATF states even one transaction could be enough for them to take action and even if you lose money or post the firearm for sale but don't actually sale it you can be charged if they determine you are an unauthorized dealer. Also if they bring civil action against you, it is up to you to provide proof you are not making a profit. It is all confusing and according to some videos might even apply if you sale online and the transaction is conducted by an FFL holder. The ATF states you can make an occasional sale but they don't determine what that means, and they also state just one sale can get you charged. It also states firearms that were obtained for personal protection can not be included in a definition of your personal collection.

Here are some videos that go into a little detail, and I am sure more will come out. I know youtube may not be the best place to find accurate information and I have read the final rule but it is so vague and contradictory that I am still not sure how to comply with this new ruling.

Insights into this unraveling of confusion will be welcome.

Final Rule Here: https://www.govinfo.gov/conten...9/pdf/2024-07838.pdf

The gun buy back program apparently is exempt at least in New Mexico.

https://thereload.com/new-mexi...on-over-gun-buyback/

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