quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:
What I am amazed by is that a hard landing caused the fire, unless the main gear somehow buckled the wings. Very strange. Godspeed to those that didn't make it off that plane.

A Russian TU-22 a few months ago, with a hard landing:

https://youtu.be/LDFldiBww_c

I remember, but it's not relevant. I could post videos of a someone breaking an MD-11 on landing and various other crashes due to botched landings.

My point being that the aircraft stayed roughly intact and was able to roll to a stop. I found exactly one case of an engine separating and causing a fire on landing and that one took the wing off entirely. That is why I thought this an unusual case.

Sure, why not?

https://youtu.be/TsAXNa3z4EE

https://youtu.be/q8OW4y3HC44

The second picture shows the same thing that occurred with the russian crash; a pilot induced oscillation (PIO) following a bounced landing. In the case of the MD11, nearly every mishap invoving the MD11 has been a result of this evolutioin, but it's not restricted to the MD11.

It can be clearly seen occurring to the russian aircraft (and thus is relevant).

https://youtu.be/dzvDuEtRgXA

Mostly accurate, missing some information and one grossly inaccurate statement at the end ("there has never been another MD11 crash due to a bounced landing"), which is the polar opposite of the truth.

The moscow mishap is clearly a bounced landing, with a very similar, familar outcome. Shoving the nose over after hitting hard will do that.

Looks like 41 dead

Everyone who took stopped to get luggage in a flaming airplane should be put in jail.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48171392

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I watched the video and was shocked at the number of crash victims that were carrying or dragging their carry on items. Grabbing those items takes time. Every person that took precious seconds to retrieve items, drag them down aisles, pause to position themselves with their belongings before getting on the escape slides, etc. probably contributed to the number of the dead. It’s why airlines tell you NOT to grab your possessions when deplaning in an emergency.

As above, Russia.

People do dumb things when they are in a panic, it's why we humans are sometimes referred to as sheep. I watched in amazement at a fire drill in my building as people lined up like sheep to go out turnstiles instead of busting out of numerous emergency exit doors all over the place.

Why was the flight crew not telling people to drop everything and get the EFF OFF THE PLANE? Probably being Russia, they un-assed the plane first and were nowhere to be found.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I watched the video and was shocked at the number of crash victims that were carrying or dragging their carry on items....

...As above, Russia.

America too. In this video from the NAS JAX 737 overrun, I see at one small suitcase and several backpacks.

https://www.news4jax.com/video...-evacuation-of-plane

Looks like passengers who grabbed luggage are being savaged in the press. And the flight attendenents praised for their actions, actually grabbing people and tossing them out the doors. One of the attendants died trying to get a door open.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne...ian-plane-crash.html

quote:

Everyone who took stopped to get luggage in a flaming airplane should be put in jail.

Sadly, some serious jail time is what it will take for dumb shit like this to stop. I mean like 10 years - no exceptions.

That or serious public shaming.

Something.

I've spent a lot of time around, over, and in fires, including several burning airplanes. Rational thought for most folks goes right out the window. A commentary was written some years ago regarding the smoke jumpers who died at South Canyon (Storm King Mountain); it's been oft discussed that some would have made it if they dropped their packs and tools and ran. They died on the edge of the safe zones.

The man writing that commentary was a veteran firefighter. His crew was facing a burnover, and they were running for their lives. He came up behind a rookie, struggling to run carrying a chain saw. He screamed at the rookie, slapped him and yanked the saw out of the kids hand and then stayed on the kids heels until they reached the safe zone.

When he got to the safe zone, he looked down to find that the saw was in his own hands, and he hadn't even known it. This was a veteran expert, intimately familar. For people climbing out of a burning airplane, they go with what they know; the last thing they did associated with the last exit they used. They came through that enterance with their bags, and they only know to go back out with their bags; there's no other rational thought.

Sensory overload.

Back when I first joined SigForum, someone had a signature line which I have never forgotten:

“You will not rise to the occasion. You will default to your level of training.”

Thanks for that post, guppy. Memorable story.

I recall an incident in SF, I believe, when a Korean airliner crashed because the ILS was out and the Korean pilot couldn’t land without it.

“Horrifying new footage of the jet disaster that killed 41 in Moscow has emerged amid claims pilots made basic errors during the emergency because they were incapable of landing without the assistance of autopilot.

The Aeroflot plane can be seen bouncing down the runway before bursting into a deadly fireball at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport on May 5.

The footage emerged as an expert claimed that the experienced captain Denis Evdokimov - hospitalised as a result of the crash - had never previously manually flown the Sukhoi Superjet 100 in so-called 'direct mode' before the crash.
……
The crash investigation is leaning towards 'pilot error' over the landing and leading Moscow experts now say an 'over-dependence on autopilot' on commercial flights is an issue that should be addressed by all major airlines…”

https://mol.im/a/7035773

I've known quite a few pilots who immediately engaged autopilot upon reaching 400' on takeoff, and who disengaged it at approach minimums on landing. For some, what you're describing is quite real: degredation of flying skills due to overuse or overreliance on automation.

Many airlines emphasize autopilot use, and some require it during nearly all phases of flight, for several reasons. The purpose of the autopilot is to improve situational awareness: it lets the crew focus on the larger picture (including handling aircraft abnormals or emergencies), scanning for traffic, communicating, etc, while managingthe aircraft operation. During a checkride, automation is preferred in most cases, largely due to the critical effect that an error can have on a career; a checkride bust can be a career killer. Consequently automation gets used a lot.

There are also a number of pilots who prefer to hand fly, or who hand fly quite a bit. I actually had a comment after a flight not long ago, which involved a takeoff and flight in visual conditions. I handfew the trip except for a short portion in cruise (where automation is required at certain altitudes). The other pilot said "you should have briefed me that you were going to hand fly." Fair enough, I guess, but it made me laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Sensory overload.

That is what keeps people from thinking at the moment, but the underlying cause of what they do is ingrained habit. That’s sometimes ingrained due to training, but more often is due to repetitious acts.

There are videos of police officers in gunfights holding onto their TASERs with one hand while shooting their handguns with the other. They are conditioned to hold onto what they’re holding, and don’t think of dropping one thing to enable them to deliver more effective fire. It was determined after 9/11 that a large percentage of the people who were in the buildings that were about to collapse on them took time to shut down their computers before evacuating: Ingrained habit. Frequent airline travelers are told over and over to not forget their belongings: Ingrained habit of worrying about their stuff rather than being burned to death.

People usually try to leave the same way they came in. Even those near rear exists will often try to push to the front.

If someone came in with something, they plan to leave with it, and unless stopped, most will or at least will try.

One of the primary duties of a flight attendant (it's not to serve drinks) is to manage an evacuation or cabin emergency.