So first thing is I've NEVER bought a brand new vehicle of any sort. Never! Always used, just because I've always been a cheapskate and never minded some TLC in making things work/run. Have never even bought from a dealer, always private. Well as I am approaching my half century mark, I thought it sure would be nice to get a new motorcycle with a warranty and all. While I love my 41 and 37 year old Cafe racers, the two hours of work for an hour of riding or being stranded somewhere gets tiresome as I get old. Figured it was time to get something brand new.

I just wanted something small and fun and was all set to get a KTM Duke 390 since all the reviews says it's a fun little bike with lots of power/torque and excellent handling for the displacement size. Plus it was relatively cheap for a new motorcycle at $4999 MSRP. I can live with that price, even though I know MSRP's are generally higher than street prices on most things. I don't mind smaller motorcycles either as I never felt I needed anything over 600cc's.

So I go to the local Carl's Motorcycles in Boise,(the only KTM dealer with it in stock) and ask what the price out the door? The sales guy says $6800.. WTF!!?? That's 30% (after sales tax) over the $4999 MSRP, which I assume also has lots of padding for profit for the dealer. I was guessing before I got there that after sales tax and paperwork fees it would be under $5700-ish ($300 sales tax + 3-400 misc fees). Apparently there's shipping fees, assembly fees, paperwork fees, fuckyouintheass fees... etc.. Well, maybe for someone else, but I aint paying for all that shit! I believe in people making a profit, but at full MSRP, and the obligatory paperwork fees, that (in my mind) should be plenty of profit.. Now if I was buying a $25K motorcycle, I could see paying an extra $1500 after taxes as the percent of the entire purchase would be much smaller and more reasonable, but an extra $1500 on top of a $4999 price tag (30+%) seems ridiculous to me. If you're going to put crate shipping fees, it better show up on my porch like Amazon does it.. And as for assembly fees, no thanks, I can do it all myself, and I bet I would do it better.

I took out my big roll of $6200 in hundreds I had in my pocket and said "I think someone else will appreciate my earnest interest more than you" and walked out the door. I then went and hit Craigslist, and found an excellent 2005 Yamaha FZ6 (600cc) with 9500 miles for $2800.

Am I just a stupid stubborn old man now about what I think I should be paying when I accept paying full $4999 MSRP + a few hundred more after sales tax? I admit, that since I have never bought anything new, I could very well be that stupid old man now... Are all these BS fees normal for new vehicles?

Maybe the demand is high enough that they can get more than MSRP for them. Nothing wrong with that, its only business. MSRP isn't sacred.

Carls is a shit show always has been
Big twin will give you the big bone as well FYI
I ride to Sparks NV to service my 1200 RT, those folks earned my business
The 2 in Boise think there arre the only game in town... not

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Maybe the demand is high enough that they can get more than MSRP for them. Nothing wrong with that, its only business. MSRP isn't sacred.

It wasn't the MSRP that bothered me, it was the $1500 extra on TOP of the MSRP price.

That is complete bs. I would not be enthusiastic to pay msrp. You maybe a cheapskate, but I am a cheap bastard and will not get screwed just for the privlege of doing business with a fu-ked up operation. No way!

Some things sell well above MSRP due to simple supply and demand.

I don't like it. I won't pay it, myself. But that's the way it is sometimes.

The only way to know is to check other places.

Maybe someone has it at a better price, but maybe not. ?

I decided to buy my bike used, but in research learned about all the fees they try to tack on, assembly etc.

Now, the bike actually does have to be assembled/set up, taxes are taxes, and license/registration is what it is as well. It is just a matter of your negotiating skills vs. whatever their bottom line price is on that model. If they know they'll sell it this week for $6500-$6800 OTD, you aren't getting OTD for 5-ish.

I've bought a few new vehicles, getting a decent deal involves lots of research to really know the numbers and the market for that vehicle and a long negotiation. Not necessarily worth it.

You could hop on a bike forum and probably get some decent responses on what people are getting it for OTD in various places.

Those are really cool little bikes, don't blame you for wanting one!

Well one thing I forgot to mention was that this $4999 MSRP was for a 20"16" model (LAST YEARS MODEL!). That was what made me question all the fees and stuff all the more (and no they wouldn't move on the price or the BS fees). This means this motorcycle has been sitting around on their showroom for at least 6 months without selling. The MSRP on the 2017 Duke 390 is even higher at $5299. I'm not going to pay an additional 30% in profit and BS fees over MSRP for a bike that's a model year old. If it was that hot a seller, there wouldn't be a last year's model still sitting in the showroom. I would have been fine to provide them some profit and move an older model, but I'm not going to screw myself that hard..

You're being kind of an old codger about this. I've been managing Metric and Harley Davidson dealerships since 2006, and have worked for several different ownership groups. They ALL have freight, prep, and doc on top of the price of the bike and tax. Why you ask? Number one is the OEM charges the dealer for these things minus the doc. Also because the buying public made it that way. Back in the day discounts where small if any. Then the buying public demanded larger discounts. Since the margins of the units stayed the same, there has to be a way to *show* the customer the discount they want, without losing so much money on the sale, that's where fees come in. In addition, the freight and prep are completely, 1000% real. The OEM charges the dealer freight on every single unit the dealer orders, to each specific VIN. These units also show up partially assembled, and require final assembly and PDI at the dealership. Naturally a technician and a service department and a bike washer has to be paid to do this.

Now that all that is explained, you said you showed them your $6,200 and left. Sounds like being a bad customer, and there is such a thing. The seller (dealership) and buyer (you) BOTH have a job to do to make a transaction. The dealer has to offer reasonable and fair service, and the customer needs to be respectful and pay the dealer for their product after making and having an offer accepted.

Did you actually OFFER the dealer the $6,200 you state you brought with you for the unit you wished to purchase? If you did and they declined, then that's their prerogative. I'll walk a customer on *certain* units I know for a fact I can sell for more money to someone else. If it's a leftover model that's had a complete Birthday then that would mean they might be incompetent, and you can't fix stupid.

JonDaddy, he chose not to pay that much for that bike and put his money back in his pocket. I'm assuming that he decided, based on their asking price, that he wouldn't be able to negotiate it down to a price he'd be willing to pay, so he walked.

How does that make him a bad customer?

No need to get exercised. Just walk, like you did. Everybody has a hand in your pocket, your choice whether to let them extract cash.

I will add that paying cash is not necessarily an advantage...

Dealerships can make additional $$ on financing. So going that route actually 'might' make you a less attractive buyer and them less willing to negotiate.

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quote:

They ALL have freight, prep, and doc on top of the price of the bike and tax.

What's the hold-back percentage on a KTM? 8% I'm guessing. To those that don't know, that's the percentage of cost the dealer gets - even if they sell the bike at invoice price.

What are the rebates and incentives (spiffs) on year-old inventory? I find it impossible to believe there aren't any on KTM, when every other manufacturer in the world has them.

I've managed shops too, Jon, but you're only telling half the story here. Customers are more informed now than ever. That big discount - it's the customer's fault - shtick is tired.

This dealer had an opportunity to make a friend, and on a guy who had multiple other bikes - parts and service down the road - but instead, like most dealers do, they tried to make full boat plus fees on a year old machine, and pissed him off instead.

Maybe they're the only game in town, and they can afford to piss people off? Maybe they've bought into the hype that KTM is some exclusive hot-shit brand that will command Harley like loyalty and pricing?

OP, your mistake was walking in with cash in hand. You knew what your top dollar was, but they didn't. Both sides deserve to know the score. This isn't like a used bike where you can ding the price for leaky seals or worn tires when you get there, this is a factory new machine with warranty. You know what you're getting into, and both of you have a dollar you are willing to give and a dollar you are willing to take.

Not knowing what I know about the industry, I would have done the same as the OP. Knowing what I know, I would have found a dealer and made my purchase elsewhere.

Will I make a long trip for a $100? - No.
Will I take an overnight to save a $1000 - You bet your ass.

FWIW, you got a great deal on a great bike. The FZ6 is a fantastic machine.

The dealer missed an opportunity to move a bike that's already had a birthday. A bike that has been there a year is like a tenant who lives in your apartment without paying rent for a year. At some point it's cheaper to move them on down the road and get a new renter.

Dealer near me has a similar mentality. Our stuff is the best, we're not taking less than "x" for it! Yeah, that's why they have a brand spanking new 2014 KX450 still sitting on their showroom floor. The 18 models will be out in a month or so, but hey, at least you got your pride. Well, your pride and a four year old NOS piece on the floor.

Personally, I'd give the salesman credit for telling you about the fees when you asked - you didn't sit down, pen in hand, and get surprised with new fees/charges when the documents came. That, IMO, is a business practice aimed at misleading customers.

A first-time new bike buyer is probably not in a position to know what charges and deal structures are typical. You made assumptions in a vacuum that turned out not to be the case at this particular dealership

quote:

I was guessing before I got there that after sales tax and paperwork fees it would be under $5700-ish ($300 sales tax + 3-400 misc fees).

They could have been messing with you, or not - not enough info to tell.

As to whether the fees are reasonable and customary in that business/market, you'd need to put it in context - i.e. check with their nearby competitors to see how they structure their deals, and ask around some local new-bike owners to see what they wound up paying vs. MSRP.

When I bought my first car back when dinosaurs stalked the earth, I was surprised by the various fees at car dealerships. Doing some research I found out what they were for, and from then on factored those into my negotiations.

I'd check two more dealers and if the price is similar then chances are it's legit.

Ain't no KTM worth ADM to me. Freight, tax ok I get it. But don't tell me you need 300 for filling out the forms to actually sell the vehicle to me.

Common years ago with Harley. They thought they were doing you a favor by even putting you on the list. Those days are gone yet I think some dealers don't realize it.

State tax, freight costs??? OK I eat some of them. assembly fees are a joke. Most will refuse them. I did. When I picked up my new Roadglide last August, it required, when they took delivery was open the crate. They have some low paid employee putting them together. When I go mine, the latest updates weren't installed in the audio system. Not a big deal to update but they charge for it.

I'd look around. It it's that popular with a low supply, then over MSWPR is going to be the norm.

bionic has it right. I don't buy the crap about freight, set up. blah, blah, blah. That is garbage
and if the customer thinks that is part of the deal the fat sob in the back and his buddy's are getting a good chuckle and patting themselves on the back as you sign up.

Aparently Hinshaw's Motorcycle Store in Auburn,WA (384 miles away) has them for $4,000.00

Find / buy in another state & tell that dealer to screw..