In all seriousness, what do you consider the starting line for civilization? And can you support that with any facts or links to facts?

Rules:

1. Civilization meaning people living in groups with centralized structure and surplus food. Not caves or hunter/gatherer nomadic tribes.

2. Evidence not necessary but appreciated. If you have a link or a factual connection, that would be great.

3. No door slamming other opinions. State your case, but no disparaging others or disrespect please.

4. For the sake of discussion, let's keep the religious zeal to a minimum. If you believe it's only 106 years because that's how long we've had the prophet JMB's 1911 - that's fine, but state your case and move on.

I'll start. Based on the semi-recent findings at Gobekli Tepe, and research of gentlemen like Dr. Robert Schoch, James Bauval, Michael Cremo and others, I believe civilization to be at the very least 12-13 thousand years old, and probably much older. And from further research regarding the period known as the Younger-Dryas, although no one has found definitive evidence, I believe the concept of an Atlantian civilization is not only very possible but quite likely.

Your thoughts?

No. It is a metaphor. It's Plato, who loves a metaphor. There's a reason no one can find Atlantis...because it's a story used to illustrate a point.

Why doesn't anyone believe that some dudes kept a bunch of people holed up in a cave and only showed them reflections of reality?

My theory is, with the earth being about 4.5 billion years old, it’s pretty ridiculous to think that even the last 20,000 years is all that there is to modern mans evolution.

Givin our cyclical nature for repeating history, we’ve probably nuked ourselves back to the Stone Age several times over and again. The human race has probably reached our technological period several times, then along came a few hot heads, and we all get to play out our shtf fantasies for real.

Yes. On Santorini . Wiped out by huge volcanic eruption.

I stayed and played in Atlantis for a week. Bahamas...

I'd say right around 10,000 BC when agriculture began.

[QUOTE]:

1. Civilization meaning people living in groups with centralized structure and surplus food. Not caves or hunter/gatherer nomadic tribes.
[UNQUOTE]

great differentiation requirement!

Agree with the Gobekli model for now, as there is considerable physical evidence.

Good thread, thanks for posting.

Archaeology has been unable to date "civilization" much before the 20,000 year threshold as stated above by JJexp. We have not been able excavate any evidence, cities, tools, burial sites, etc. that would take us past that boundary. Also sonar mapping has yet to locate a suitable sub sea formation that could be considered Atlantis.

I have done a lot of thinking and have located and collected samples of Iridium from the 70 million year old dinosaur killer rock that slammed into the Gulf of Mexico and that evidence is still available to find. I have also found buckshot size spheres believed to be from another impact we haven't found the crater yet. These are all examples of "recent" history geologically speaking.

I will watch this thread with interest.

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
No. It is a metaphor. It's Plato, who loves a metaphor. There's a reason no one can find Atlantis...because it's a story used to illustrate a point.

Actually, it's starting to look like there's things on the island of Santorini that fit a lot of what he was talking about, including freestanding multi-story masonry and indoor plumbing of the sort that isn't seen again in the archaeological record until well into the Roman empire on an island destoyed by volcanic activity. He may not have had to create a story in order to see a metaphor in one.

quote:

No. It is a metaphor. It's Plato, who loves a metaphor.

Gotcha on this point, and I agree with that statement. Although it's a stunning coincidence that Plato goes as far as to date the metaphor - 9000 years before the time of Solon(sp?) - which would place it right at the very edge of the Younger-Dryas event 11,600 years ago.

quote:

Why doesn't anyone believe that some dudes kept a bunch of people holed up in a cave and only showed them reflections of reality?

You lost me on this one. What's the reference?

It's from Republic. Read all about it here.

quote:

I have also found buckshot size spheres believed to be from another impact we haven't found the crater yet.

Awesome! Sounds like you either have a cool job or a very interesting hobby.

Maybe you could tell me, if the impact was on the ice shelf - as some have theorized - would a crater even exist?

quote:

Originally posted by JJexp:
My theory is, with the earth being about 4.5 billion years old, it’s pretty ridiculous to think that even the last 20,000 years is all that there is to modern mans evolution.

Givin our cyclical nature for repeating history, we’ve probably nuked ourselves back to the Stone Age several times over and again. The human race has probably reached our technological period several times, then along came a few hot heads, and we all get to play out our shtf fantasies for real.

^^^This has seemed most likely to me for a while now.

There was a show a few years ago called "Life After People". One of the first things it discussed was that if we just went away suddenly it would only take the world about 10,000 years to get rid of any traces of our being here that weren't carved in very hard stone.

10k to 4.5b is just an eye blink. Even factoring in a couple billion for planet formation etc., we've still only been here for a moment...this time around.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Shugart:
It's from Republic. Read all about it here.

Thank you, Shugart.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Yes. On Santorini . Wiped out by huge volcanic eruption.

This.

tac

The earth is flat; and, well- turtles...

Actually Rule #1 is rather restrictive, because by most measures advanced nomadic tribes, still in existence today, are considered substantially to be "civilization." However if you mean collections of humans who built stone houses, Skara Brae in Orkney is a good example:



Circa 3,180 B. C.

And there was demonstrably a civilization about 70,000 years before that at La Chappele-aux Saints in France, including rather tidy homes constructed of wood and stone by our most recent ancestors and contemporaries, Homo sapiens neanderthalensis , also arguably "people."

Human "civilization" has a more ancient lineage than most give it credit for....

Atlantis? Sure, very possible. It only takes a few hundred years for a civilization to go from a collection of nomads into a city/state. With the right people in charge.

My people were making musical instruments 40,000 years ago in the area of Eastern Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurignacian

quote:

Originally posted by JJexp:
My theory is, with the earth being about 4.5 billion years old, it’s pretty ridiculous to think that even the last 20,000 years is all that there is to modern mans evolution.

Givin our cyclical nature for repeating history, we’ve probably nuked ourselves back to the Stone Age several times over and again. The human race has probably reached our technological period several times, then along came a few hot heads, and we all get to play out our shtf fantasies for real.

There is no evidence of any of that, though.

The early cave painters, at around 40,000 years ago are my first civilized people. (Maybe a little earlier, as earlier paintings may not have been well-protected.) Anyone who deliberately makes art is civilized in my book.

The Allegory of the Cave is clearly an allegory. Plato talks about Atlantis as a historical reality. Big difference.