quote:

Originally posted by FishOn:
I read an article lately discussing how expensive it is to insure Rivians, since they are very expensive to fix even after a small fender bender. So, might want to research that.

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5 Years ago I was going down the Tesla model 3 path but backed away when I got my insurance quote. It was prohibitively high. My impression then was that the lack of replacement parts and Tesla certified repair centers slows repairs and increases cost. Add to that the high cost of battery replacement may lead to more cars being totaled after any collision that damages the battery. I'm not sure if that's still the case for Tesla or the other EV manufacturers but seems plausible.

Ended up in a Chevy Bolt. 5 years later it's still a cool suburban commuter car that my teenage daughter now drives. The battery was replaced under recall at 36k miles so it should last for quite a while longer. And no, she does not appreciate fully that she doesn't have to buy gas

looks like some lifestyles would be fine just driving a golf cart

A few thoughts to consider for your use case that I haven't seen mentioned.

Are you set up to fast charge both at home and at the cabin? If not I would consider that a no-go right off the bat, on 120V it takes days to get any kind of range. I know you said you would charge it at home, but I wouldn't want to end up at the cabin without a good way to charge it back up.

Also, look at tire cost. People are reporting 5k mile tire life with the Rivians due to their weight and power. That adds up when the tires are expensive to begin with.

That said, they sure do look like a whole lot of fun for an around town errand runner.

House is easy. Already have 220 in the garage and a good buddy that is an electrician.

Cabin does not currently have 220. However all electric is 2 years old I also have a panel that has 3 RV hookups. Should easily be able to get 220 if needed.
Though I don’t go in the winter and the cabin is 95 miles away. While charging while there would be nice not sure it’s necessary.

Had not heard the 5k tire life on them! Wow. I knew they were harder on tires but had not heard that number.
2 sets of tires a year would be a bit rowdy

5K for tires has not been my experience at all. I’m getting over 20k on mine which is almost double what I get in my Porsche.

I think a lot has to do with the particular tire you’re on and how aggressive you drive.

Link

Nice EV You Got There—Can You Afford to Insure It?



Electric vehicles can be a pain to insure. Fixing the problem would give reluctant buyers one less thing to worry about.

You can still get insurance for any vehicle in any state but, at a time when motorists already are moaning about expensive coverage, EVs could add to the burden. They are often more expensive than gas-powered cars and typically cost more to repair, which leads to larger claims.

In the U.S., the average severity of a claim for a repairable EV was $6,066 in the first quarter, nearly 30% higher than for internal-combustion-engine (ICE) vehicles, according to Mitchell, which provides software and data to auto insurers and the collision-repair industry. Car-rental agency Hertz, which in 2021 announced its plan to buy 100,000 Teslas, sending both its stock and that of the automaker higher on the news, has reversed course this year. The company cited the “damage expense associated with EVs” in its January decision to sell a third of its EV fleet.

Part of that cost can be the greater work involved: over three mechanical labor hours on average for a repairable EV claim estimate, versus less than two for ICE vehicles, according to Mitchell data. Mechanics sometimes have to de-energize electric vehicles before removing their high-voltage batteries to avoid damaging them during repairs, Mitchell said.

There may be behavioral driving changes, too. EVs naturally have more torque, which means that their electric motors can instantly deliver power to the transmission. Some insurers worry that faster acceleration from traffic lights could lead to more accidents, though some reviews have also found that EVs are less frequently involved in insurance claims.

A review in May by Insurify, based on quotes on its online insurance-comparison platform, compared quotes for 13 popular EV models to gas-powered cars of similar cost and size. Insurify found the monthly EV premium cost to be on average 12% higher. It focused on drivers with clean driving histories and on newer-model vehicles.

The recent rise in insurance costs reflects companies catching up. The so-called combined ratio for U.S. personal auto insurers industrywide hit 112% in 2022 and 105% last year, according to Fitch Ratings. This ratio means an insurer made an underwriting loss, paying out more in claims and expenses than they collected in premiums.

It isn’t just an American problem. In China, where EVs now account for about two-fifths of sales, the combined ratio on EV policies for insurers was over 100% in 2023, according to a review of company reports by economists at the Swiss Re Institute.

Insurers may opt to focus on EVs anyway. Sales have stalled lately in Western markets, but they are still projected to grow by around 20% this year to nearly 17 million units globally, according to the International Energy Agency. Some insurers even offer EV discounts.

“It may make sense for an insurer to improve their brand footprint in a certain market—use it as a loss leader,” says Ryan Mandell, Mitchell’s director of claims performance.

Yet some insurers might want to prioritize profit. Personal auto policy writers globally are just emerging from a surge in claims costs due to inflation and have been seeking to raise drivers’ rates. Fitch Ratings now anticipates that U.S. personal auto insurers could see the industrywide combined ratio fall to approximately 100% this year.

Time could help alleviate EVs’ repairability problems. As the recycling and secondary parts and vehicles market evolves, mechanics learn and manufacturers adapt. “My belief is that you will see the insurability costs begin to come down as EVs scale,” says Craig Carrington, who runs commercial-vehicle insurance and financing for Ford Motor.

Many are calling for carmakers to work with insurers to find ways to improve repairability. “Deeper cooperation of EV insurers and carmakers may help to support better outcomes for all parties,” Swiss Re Institute economists wrote. Tesla just hired an executive from Berkshire Hathaway’s Geico to make its cars easier and cheaper to insure.

One complication is the trend toward “gigacasting”—using smaller numbers of larger cast parts to make vehicles. Tesla has championed the technology, and others, including Toyota, are now following. But it could make cars even more expensive to repair. If lower production costs mean higher insurance costs, then drivers won’t actually save money.

More complicated cars aren’t all bad: Whether in EVs or traditional cars, digital technology holds the promise of lowering insurance costs because it generates the kind of driver data that could potentially help underwriters manage risks better. This is one reason carmakers increasingly offer insurance.

Prompted in part by customer complaints that its products were expensive to insure, Tesla launched an insurance business in California in 2019, promising rates up to 30% cheaper than other providers. General Motors and Ford followed suit.

Ford offers a 10% discount on insurance to fleet managers in exchange for consent to use their data, with a view to using it to help them reduce risky driving behavior and hence insurance costs. Vehicle-generated data can identify some driving practices that a smartphone can’t, such as seat-belt usage, says Ford’s Carrington.

But such products all still appear to be at the startup stage. Although Tesla Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said in an October 2020 earnings call that insurance could one day account for 30% to 40% of the company’s total value, he has barely mentioned it in more recent business updates.

For now, the Silicon Valley dream of reducing costs through better driving data appears to be overwhelmed by the mundane realities of waiting around at the repair shop.

I would be concerned about the added cost to the vehicle insurance. I would call my insurance to get a quote on the premiums. A big concern is the lack of local repairs shop. A family member works for an insurance company and they had to flat bed a Telsa from PA to OH for certified repairs. Granted this was a few years ago so things could have changed.

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Rivian fender bender gets $42,000 repair quote.

https://insideevs.com/news/665...der-big-repair-bill/

My brother has one. he loves it. Rivian has been very proactive on any issues that have arisen. He was one of the first to get his and took advantage of all the stock they gave him during the delay to almost pay it off when the stock was worth something

outside a couple small issues, behavior changes, its worked for him. He was living in Portola Valley and driving to their house in Tahoe City throughout the year almost weekly. He needed to stop and charge about 2/3s of the way there for about 30 min, timed it with when they would stop and eat dinner anyway

Something is missing from this EV thread and it's not hate. Where are the oversized photos of Sigforumite's Rivians?

How is Rivian's financial health? I've seen headlines but not read the articles that they are in trouble. As with any complex and expensive product, I would avoid buying it if repair parts may become unavailable or stupid expensive.

There are a couple of Rivian's around here. They are darned good looking trucks, way nicer than the Tesla.

quote:

Originally posted by sse:
looks like some lifestyles would be fine just driving a golf cart

What does this add to the thread?

I don't have one but there are a few around town. I like the look of them, and every review I've watched/read seems to be pretty positive. One guy actually used it like a truck, and was pretty satisfied with the results. Honestly, although an EV doesn't fit our family's lifestyle very well (we take a LOT of long road trips), my truck would be the easiest thing to replace with one. It typically just gets driven around town and tows my small boat 5 miles down the road to the lake and back.

We were trying to get a grant to get some EVs for work earlier this year, and I told my boss that the Rivian looked cool. He asked me if I'd looked at the price. I had not, so I did. We didn't end up getting the grant, but even if we had there's no way we could have afforded/justified one of those.

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
5K for tires has not been my experience at all. I’m getting over 20k on mine which is almost double what I get in my Porsche.

I think a lot has to do with the particular tire you’re on and how aggressive you drive.

Pretty much this. I'm 20K on my Model 3 and they look a little over half worn with stock 19" tires. I drive a little aggressive off a red light every now and then. Acceleration is fun. But the Rivian almost weights near double the model 3. I'd like if you don't' drive like a mad man you should be fine getting 15K miles off stock tires.

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
5K for tires has not been my experience at all. I’m getting over 20k on mine which is almost double what I get in my Porsche.

I think a lot has to do with the particular tire you’re on and how aggressive you drive.

Pretty much this. I'm 20K on my Model 3 and they look a little over half worn with stock 19" tires. I drive a little aggressive off a red light every now and then. Acceleration is fun. But the Rivian almost weights near double the model 3. I'd like if you don't' drive like a mad man you should be fine getting 15K miles off stock tires.

I got 55k on the original OEM Michelins on my model 3 LR. Don’t expect to get that from the pilot sports I put on

It’s all dependent on how you drive. Just like any other vehicle

My neighbor has one and he says it’s great.

Saw this article about a Rivian that's been stuck in a ditch for 4 months. Several towing services refused to even attempt pulling it out for fear of fire. Could be a real issue if going off road at all.

Article

Shop around for insurance.

A relative found a company that is cheaper to insure his Y than a seven y.o. subaru