Anyone?

This poor SOB was hit by 2, never had a chance to get his bear mace out. I know a lot of guys carry guns in bear country (me included) but I have to wonder if your chances are better with the startling effect of mace than a bullet that may or may not hit it's target.

http://www.startribune.com/twi...mountains/492958401/[FLASH_VIDEO] [/FLASH_VIDEO]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ronin1069,

I wonder how much noise he was making before the attack.

Sounds like out on a hike, not hunting. No one thing works in all situations. It seems one is less likely to be surprised with a dog along, noise helps too.


It may be that it just wasn’t your day, Mr Murphy ends up working against you. It sounds like serious injuries.

I'm enjoying hiking less and less these days. While perhaps rare, I'm increasingly concerned about wildlife encounters.

This past weekend, we went for a hike relatively close to civilization but still out of cell phone range (no signal). There were signs posted about recent mountain lion sightings. We still hiked the trail but my hand was on my 26 (in my IWB) for most of the time. Head was on a swivel. I was uncomfortable most of the hike and didn't really enjoy it.

Ignorance may truly be bliss (until wildlife attacks you).

On another forum, a guy from Alaska related his Bear incident.
He was actually hunting and was carrying his rifle.
He turned a corner and came face to face with a bear.
He said it happened so fast that he never even got a chance to raise the rifle.

He got tore up pretty bad.
Luckily for him, his friend was a few yards behind and was able to shoot the Bear off him.

I call B.S.

Two Bears has been dead since 1879.

The Forest Service has issued a BEAR WARNING in the national forests
for this summer. They're urging everyone to protect themselves by
wearing bells and carrying pepper spray.

Campers should be alert for signs of fresh bear activity, and they
should be able to tell the difference between Black Bear dung and
Grizzy Bear dung.

Black Bear dung is rather small and round. Sometimes you can see
fruit seeds and/or squirrel fur in it.

Grizzly Bear dung has bells in it, and smells like pepper spray!

quote:

I have to wonder if your chances are better with the startling effect of mace than a bullet that may or may not hit it's target.

I've heard this school of thought before, and while I'm admittedly no bear expert, I do know a bit about spray. Spray is effective because it hurts. There's no magic to it..it's just pain compliance. You may get some respiratory reaction as well if you get it in the airway, but I can assure you that if I can fight through that, a bear definitely can. A bullet is gonna hurt too, and with an appropriate caliber and shot placement, may even incapacitate it. Spray is not going to do that...you're just hoping the bear is not gonna like it and go away.

Also, I firmly believe that I'm more accurate with a pistol than I am with an aerosol can, and bullets don't disperse or get misdirected by wind at those ranges, so the handgun argument has that in it's favor as well.

It's my belief that the "spray is more effective than a gun" argument is primarily propogated by the animal rights types that don't want to see bears get shot. While I have no desire to ever shoot a bear, especially not with a handgun or at a range close enough to deploy spray, if I'm ever in a situation where I have to I'd rather have the extra chance of incapacitating it rather than just trying to scare it off with spray.

I like bears and really enjoy watching them from a safe distance. I would hate to have to kill one. But I'd hate it more to have I or one of my family seriously injured or killed. Animals are animals, people are people. The latter trumps the former.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

I have to wonder if your chances are better with the startling effect of mace than a bullet that may or may not hit it's target.

I've heard this school of thought before, and while I'm admittedly no bear expert, I do know a bit about spray. Spray is effective because it hurts. There's no magic to it..it's just pain compliance. You may get some respiratory reaction as well if you get it in the airway, but I can assure you that if I can fight through that, a bear definitely can. A bullet is gonna hurt too, and with an appropriate caliber and shot placement, may even incapacitate it. Spray is not going to do that...you're just hoping the bear is not gonna like it and go away.

Also, I firmly believe that I'm more accurate with a pistol than I am with an aerosol can, and bullets don't disperse or get misdirected by wind at those ranges, so the handgun argument has that in it's favor as well.

It's my belief that the "spray is more effective than a gun" argument is primarily propogated by the animal rights types that don't want to see bears get shot. While I have no desire to ever shoot a bear, especially not with a handgun or at a range close enough to deploy spray, if I'm ever in a situation where I have to I'd rather have the extra chance of incapacitating it rather than just trying to scare it off with spray.

I like bears and really enjoy watching them from a safe distance. I would hate to have to kill one. But I'd hate it more to have I or one of my family seriously injured or killed. Animals are animals, people are people. The latter trumps the former.

You should’ve stopped after “I'm admittedly no bear expert.”

A person being sprayed with pepper spray 1) knows that it's pepper spray and 2) fights through it because needs to.

A bear being sprayed with pepper spray 1) has no idea why its highly sensitive senses are lit up on fire, and 2) does not have "mauling humans" high up on it's priority list. It's not going to fight through the pain just to get to it's next meal or assert its territory.

Bears have a very sensitive sense of smell. They also have very thick skin, lots of fat, and high pain tolerance from years of fighting with other bears and tearing through the woods. You gotta hit em where it hurts.

Guessing he spooked the bears, possibly two jumping him, that's crazy scary. This time of year, aren't bears pre-occupied with gorging on food preparing for winter?
Last time we went hiking back into Teton (before firearms allowed pre'10), not only was the spray on my shoulder strap and bells on my pack but, bells on the hiking poles. I don't normally use a hiking pole but, when in bear country, good idea to have a distance-device albeit temporarily.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I call B.S.

Two Bears has been dead since 1879.

*smiles a lot*

quote:

Because of the limited space on the helicopter, Johnson’s companion, 45-year-old Justin Reed, of Medina, was left behind until a ground rescue team went in about 7 p.m. Sunday and guided him out about 2:15 a.m. Monday.

We know your buddy just got mauled by a bear, and we haven't located the bears, but we need to leave you here by yourself tonight until a rescue party arrives to escort you out safely.

quote:

Originally posted by Ronin1069:
I know a lot of guys carry guns in bear country (me included) but I have to wonder if your chances are better with the startling effect of mace than a bullet that may or may not hit it's target.

My school of thought when I lived in Alaska was choose both.

I’ll get to that in a minute but first want to take a step back to general safety in bear country :

you’re statistically less likely to be attacked in a group so don’t hike alone and if in a group stick together (the victim was up ahead of the group and essentially hiking alone)

make noise so you don’t surprise a bear. Talk and wear bear bells (I had ones you could silence by covering with mesh bag with a magnet in bottom so they didn’t drive me bonkers in my car and other times I didn’t need bells)

Stay alert and look for signs of bears. I had a guest who had some weird sense of pride that he hiked faster than me. He got a weird look on his face when I inquired how many bear signs did he see in the last 5 min (0 vs the 3 I saw). I followed up with slow the fuck down and stick together because I’m hiking at a speed where I can observe tracks, scat, etc and ID fresh signs of a a bear, moose, or wolf.

Never run if you encounter a bear. While I lived in AK there was a group of approx a dozen teens attacked while hiking. It defied logic until more came out that one fast hiker got ahead of the group (ie essentially hiking alone), encountered a bear, ran back toward the group, and brought back to the group a charging bear with its chasing prey insticts cranked up, and the bear mauled over half the group.

Back to my “choosing both” comment. My preference was to carry a .454 Casull in a chest holster and provide my companions with bear spray (carrier had chest holster or could be clipped to backpack straps). It was the best of both worlds with a good tool to reduce chance of bear encounter going bad and a lethal tool if bear encounter went bad. Fortunately, I never had to use either the spray or the gun.

---

Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

I have to wonder if your chances are better with the startling effect of mace than a bullet that may or may not hit it's target.

I've heard this school of thought before, and while I'm admittedly no bear expert, I do know a bit about spray. Spray is effective because it hurts. There's no magic to it..it's just pain compliance. You may get some respiratory reaction as well if you get it in the airway, but I can assure you that if I can fight through that, a bear definitely can. A bullet is gonna hurt too, and with an appropriate caliber and shot placement, may even incapacitate it. Spray is not going to do that...you're just hoping the bear is not gonna like it and go away.

Also, I firmly believe that I'm more accurate with a pistol than I am with an aerosol can, and bullets don't disperse or get misdirected by wind at those ranges, so the handgun argument has that in it's favor as well.

It's my belief that the "spray is more effective than a gun" argument is primarily propogated by the animal rights types that don't want to see bears get shot. While I have no desire to ever shoot a bear, especially not with a handgun or at a range close enough to deploy spray, if I'm ever in a situation where I have to I'd rather have the extra chance of incapacitating it rather than just trying to scare it off with spray.

I like bears and really enjoy watching them from a safe distance. I would hate to have to kill one. But I'd hate it more to have I or one of my family seriously injured or killed. Animals are animals, people are people. The latter trumps the former.

You should’ve stopped after “I'm admittedly no bear expert.”

Fair enough. Like I said, not claiming to have all the answers...just expressing my thought process on the matter. If it's unsound, please educate me.

The attack occurred in the Beartooth mountain range. How’d he not see that coming!

Kidding aside, here’s to a complete recovery for him. Terrifying.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:
You should’ve stopped after “I'm admittedly no bear expert.”

Fair enough. Like I said, not claiming to have all the answers...just expressing my thought process on the matter. If it's unsound, please educate me.

I don’t really know you, in spite of the fact that we’ve both been members here quite a long time. I read that your location was “in the cornfields,” and truth be told, I thought, “You really aren’t an expert are you, and yet you are sharing this opinion about the way to address a grizzly bear encounter.”

I was the District Ranger for the Blackrock Ranger District of the Bridger-Teton National Forest. Blackrock is the northernmost district. My neighbor to the north was Yellowstone, to the west—Grand Teton NP. Crown jewel of the district was the nearly 600,000 acre Teton Wilderness.

We dealt with grizzlies from spring until nap time in the winter.

I was fortunate to have had the opportunity to both converse with, and go to the field with, grizzly researchers from Wyoming Game and Fish, USGS, and the IGBST (Interagency G Bear Study Team).

You’re right, none of us from state or federal agencies ever wanted to HAVE TO shoot a bear. All of us carried bear spray (accept no substitute, only genuine “bear spray”) because we believed it was the most effective way of protecting ourselves. “Animal rights” has nothing to do with it. A grizzly can cover ground at up to 35 mph. If you pull a large caliber revolver and hit the heart or lungs, it could still knock your head off before it knows it’s dead. Brain or spine shot on a charging bear? Any potentially fatal shot, really requires the shooter to drop down to a knee in front of a griz closing with terrifying speed.

On my own time, fly fishing, I carried a .44 mag in a chest holster as Todd described. I also carried bear spray and that’s the first thing I planned to deploy. Like Todd, fortunately, I never had a confrontation requiring the use of either spray or a firearm. I did have a fatality occur on my district from bear attack, and several non-fatal attacks, and I was part of the investigation.

Todd’s advice goes right along with what I would say. I would only add, when I return for a visit I will carry bear spray, I will undoubtedly also have my big-bore, but I truly believe the best odds for surviving a bear attacking for myself and loved ones is to deploy spray first.

I imagine that Todd would also agree, if I really thought there was a chance of bear attack, I wouldn’t be relying on a handgun of any caliber, I’d have a 12 gauge loaded with slugs, or a rifle of .35 caliber or better.

Unless you hike through the forest with your very large caliber gun drawn and cocked - you might as well leave it at home.

TMats, thanks for taking the time to explain. Sounds like you've been there done that and I appreciate you sharing your experience. I guess I need to order some bear spray before our next trip out west. Do you have any stories from your time in the parks where people were able to successfully thwart a bear attack? The media always focuses on the ones that end in mauling or death, but you never hear about the people who managed to escape unscathed, or what techniques they employed to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by DonDraper:
Unless you hike through the forest with your very large caliber gun drawn and cocked - you might as well leave it at home.

Charging brown bear (aka grizzly) dropped with same revolver I carry

Charging grizzly dropped in Denali with 45 ACP first year National Parks gun laws were changed to match host state's gun laws

Alaska hiker carrying AK-74 (not a typo) drops a grizzly

Alaska Outfitter Defends Fishermen from Raging Grizzly with 9mm Pistol