When I worked for a US offshoot of a Foreign company, I was asked by a few people that knew me to bring over a few items when I went overseas for training.

I checked with my ITAR compliance officer, and cleared with customs the things I could bring.

I'm sure there are those out there that wouldn't be a forthcoming as I was, and a few sets of score rings wouldn't raise to many questions.

Of course, I'm curious if it was actual product or ChiCom knockoff. We had items that were very strict ITAR, but could be bought off Wish.com for 3.37!

I worked for a Defense Contractor for a little while, and had to go through ITAR training. It's insane to the point that you have to be careful what you say around foreign nationals because just saying the wrong thing could be considered an export and you can get a $10K fine.

As far as I can tell, this post isn't really about ITARs, it's really about the OP venting about how some dude in the Balkans has something that he wants on his own rifle and lack of customer support by the manufacturer.

quote:

Originally posted by sooma:
As far as I can tell, this post isn't really about ITARs, it's really about the OP venting about how some dude in the Balkans has something that he wants on his own rifle and lack of customer support by the manufacturer.

Hmm, no, as far as I can tell, it's some dude confused about ITAR regulations. Shit's goofy as fuck. S0ort of like "what's this gun law mean, I'll ask a cop!" taken to 11.

quote:

Originally posted by sooma:
some dude in the Balkans has something that he wants on his own rifle

And what might that be, based on what I have posted thus far? I have just recently sold off many of my Leupold scopes and do not presently need any more. Although the Savage precision rifle is probably a fine gun, I have others that I have discussed at boring length on the forum, and suit my purposes just fine. The only other “something” I have specifically mentioned here is scope rings, and I have a small box full of unused ones that I can’t even sell.

What a strange coincidence it is that I predicted the poor reading comprehension that some always exhibit in these threads; I must be psychic, eh—?

quote:

Originally posted by sooma:
As far as I can tell, this post isn't really about ITARs, it's really about the OP venting about how some dude in the Balkans has something that he wants on his own rifle and lack of customer support by the manufacturer.

That's because you fail to comprehend the actual content of the OP.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
What a strange coincidence it is that I predicted the poor reading comprehension that some always exhibit in these threads; I must be psychic, eh—?

Alright, I'll play.

Post#1: An interrogative concerning if ITARs is actually enforced. Answered by many, yes it is.

Post#2: Ok, then how does a scope end up in the Ukraine? Answered by possible waivers

Post#3: Ok, my post was maybe unclear, Ok then how does an ITAR item end up on a Chechen rifle. Answered by it is possible to someone just put it in the mail.

Post#4: Is there any other systemic diversion operations? Answered by, maybe its a just a hunting item or easy to clear customs.

Post #5: I'm annoyed that a US scope manufacturer is using ITARs as an excuse to not help me, but this item is overseas. Answered by again, maybe an exemption.

Post#6: Not the item I'm wanting.

Post#7: ITARs regs changed, but maybe manufacturers haven't updated their info. And talk about being unable to sell scopes even at fire sale prices.

But really, it's about Post #5, where you are annoyed about not getting the info to see if a 2nd party sunshade will fit. That really has nothing to do with ITARs, because in Post #7, you said you are not doing international sales.

So before you talk shit about others reading comprehension, maybe read your own post and ask yourself, "Is this the right question?"

quote:

Originally posted by Pyker:
That's because you fail to comprehend the actual content of the OP.

After reading my response, please tell me what I fail to comprehend?

This is a discussion forum, and discussions often evolve over time. If I had known what information would be presented during the discussion, I might have attempted to make my original question clearer for the benefit of people who have a tendency to misinterpret questions. I do my best to not confuse people, but sometimes that’s impossible.

And I might not have asked the original question at all because I might have had the information I was seeking. But I didn’t and that’s why I ask questions. Very often it’s impossible to know in advance whether the right question was asked. That’s why we have discussions about questions: to help determine that and whether other questions are appropriate.

FWIW, though, my previous response wasn’t about the information provided thus far (thanks for all the helpful replies), but was directed at the totally baseless shit-talking conclusion that I wasn’t actually seeking information but had merely started the topic as a devious way to lead into a bitch revealing my scope and/or rifle envy and complaint about customer service.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Okay, thanks for all the comments.

I guess I’m still annoyed that a US scope manufacturer would use ITAR as an excuse to refuse to help me determine whether another company’s sunshade would fit a scope that they don’t make one for and allow others to make a profit based on their product.

I think you nailed it on the head. It was just an excuse. Even if they're not supplying it doesn't mean they can open up the market and have someone make a profit based on their product.

Here's what I know from working in supply chain in international companies where we have to take periodic training about not doing business or sending product to countries not allowed to receive US products. We even get a primer that if we, as a US citizen, go to work for a foreign company located in a country where it's allowed to do business with a sanctioned country, we are in violation of the US law. We have to exit any conversations occurring.

The US government has a big network to ensure US and US ally products don't go to countries where they don't want it to go. And there's no game playing about it; if there were any indications you should have picked up that product was not going where it was not supposed to go to, you and the company is on the hook.

You have to admit the US has some big pull if it can make Swiss banks share account information with the US.

Having said that, there has to be a big gray/black market that skirt US prohibitions. Just think of the goods that North Korea dictator gets to enjoy that he isn't supposed to enjoy. That one is strictly North Korea but there are other private gray/black marketers. If there's a buck to be made illegally, it will be made.

Then you also have the CIA who may want to skirt prohibitions as well.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
When I asked a Leupold rep what the objective lens mount screw thread specifications were for a Mark 6 scope, he refused, citing ITAR.

Let's review for a moment. I can go to any Bass Pro Shop and purchase this scope. But the Leupold rep can't tell me the technical specs of it?

Does this really pass the common sense test?

quote:

Originally posted by sooma:
As far as I can tell, this post isn't really about ITARs, it's really about the OP venting about how some dude in the Balkans has something that he wants on his own rifle and lack of customer support by the manufacturer.

Knock it off.

quote:

Originally posted by Broadside:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
When I asked a Leupold rep what the objective lens mount screw thread specifications were for a Mark 6 scope, he refused, citing ITAR.

Let's review for a moment. I can go to any Bass Pro Shop and purchase this scope. But the Leupold rep can't tell me the technical specs of it?

Does this really pass the common sense test?

Yeah, that actually does make some sense in a convoluted way. If the information is just on the open internet, anyone can get it. He's got no way to know you are who you purport to be (and thus a US- or ITAR-authorized person. That's the same reason why there's a PDF of the zeroing target for a MAWL or other laser openly available on the web, but the manual for my NODS, MAWL, or LA5 isn't directly available.

My company makes some ITAR products for the military and those production areas are separated and restricted to US citizens only. Letting a foreign national see it or work on it can be a violation, so we get training and strict instructions.

That said, it's like mail fraud being a federal crime, but the Postal Inspectors and US Attorneys are not going to file a Federal charge for one incident. The idea that anyone will be prosecuted by the Feds for your internet sale/shipment gone awry is misplaced, as a US Postal Inspector (an armed Federal LEO) told me.

They are only going to file for cases big enough to be worth their time. However, accumulated reports by multiple people against a fraud actor can trigger a prosecution so reporting does help.

ITAR is probably similar for limited shipments of small stuff. The large scale and commercial activity is what their limited resources are focused on.

Unlike most countries there is no exit immigration and customs check when you leave the US. International flights can leave from domestic terminals. All you need is a passport and visa for the intended country. The only inspection is by TSA and you know how good they are...

The only control is entry immigration at the destination. In my experience, most countries entry customs have an X-ray for luggage and yours may or may not be screened depending on the volume of people and how you look. Everywhere I've been, you collect your checked bags after immigration but before customs and walk/cart them through customs before you can connect to a domestic flight. The screening is basically the same as any airport screen looking for obvious contraband. The people I've seen tagged to have their bags opened usually have food or seeds.

I actually had to deal with ITAR to ship GPS trackers around the world to be placed in customer equipment that our prototype component was installed in. The GPS tags reported to a satellite and showed up on a tracking site. Had to clear it with legal that it was OK to send the trackers to China especially.

As for international shipments through FedEx or (god forbid) DHL, you have to declare the item and pay the appropriate taxes for the importing country and clear their customs. The only way to ship a restricted item in secret is to declare it as something else, which will get you in trouble on the receiving end. Not sure how often they x-ray screen or open packages.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lefty Sig,

quote:

Originally posted by hile:
Yeah, that actually does make some sense in a convoluted way.

I briefly considered offering to send him a copy of my passport to prove that I was a “US person,” but more as a way of making a point rather than actually convincing him/the company that the information could be revealed to me. Not doing that, though, probably just saved us both some annoyance. My ultimate solution was to epoxy another company’s sunshade into a Tenebraex ring adapter for the Mark 6, and that worked fine without risking the violent overthrow of a friendly country someplace.

And thanks, Lefty Sig, for your comments. That’s the sort of information I hope to get from these discussions.