quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
But hey fuck everyone else right?

No, just you.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
And yes you should care about the damage of the cars that ran into you. If accidents in your area cost 20-30% more because everyone is leaving their hitches on their trucks, that means that cost will be passed onto you through increased insurance rates.

Show your work. Show actual statistics that show that accidents cost 20-30% more due to trailer hitches. Either that statistic exists or you just made it up out of thin air.

Also show the actual percentage increase in insurance rates due to truck drivers leaving hitches on.

Otherwise it's BS.

Trailer receivers alone increase injury rates 20% per either the NHTSA or the IIHS (I forget where I read it but it was on one of those sites). I don't have an exact number in property damage.

So, not BS.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
But hey fuck everyone else right?

No, just you.

And the lady who got rammed into you apparently per your own posting.

People who think leaving something in the hitch will help don't understand physics. Yeah it'll mess up the guy that bumps you at low speed but in a harder hit, it's redirecting the impact force in a way that most likely wasn't tested and probably would end up causing more damage than if it were removed. Nevermind how crappy so many OEM hitches are that they'd probably peel back like a tin can anyhow.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
And yes you should care about the damage of the cars that ran into you. If accidents in your area cost 20-30% more because everyone is leaving their hitches on their trucks, that means that cost will be passed onto you through increased insurance rates.

Show your work. Show actual statistics that show that accidents cost 20-30% more due to trailer hitches. Either that statistic exists or you just made it up out of thin air.

Also show the actual percentage increase in insurance rates due to truck drivers leaving hitches on.

Otherwise it's BS.

Trailer receivers alone increase injury rates 20% per either the NHTSA or the IIHS (I forget where I read it). I don't have an exact number in property damage.

So, not BS.

That's not what you claimed, so yes your claim that accidents cost 20-30% more because of trailer hitches is bullshit.

Show your work or quit making up BS to support your claims.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
And yes you should care about the damage of the cars that ran into you. If accidents in your area cost 20-30% more because everyone is leaving their hitches on their trucks, that means that cost will be passed onto you through increased insurance rates.

Show your work. Show actual statistics that show that accidents cost 20-30% more due to trailer hitches. Either that statistic exists or you just made it up out of thin air.

Also show the actual percentage increase in insurance rates due to truck drivers leaving hitches on.

Otherwise it's BS.

Trailer receivers alone increase injury rates 20% per either the NHTSA or the IIHS (I forget where I read it). I don't have an exact number in property damage.

So, not BS.

That's not what you claimed, so yes your claim that accidents cost 20-30% more because of trailer hitches is bullshit.

Show your work or quit making up BS to support your claims.

I just gave you a number, injury rates being increased 20% will easily increase the cost of an accident 20% or more. Whiplash injuries often cost more to treat than it costs to fix most slow speed bumper repairs.

You also claimed that insurance rates were higher due to truck drivers leaving hitches on. Show your work on that one or retract it. Quit spreading BS.

You have no evidence for any of the claims you have made. Zero evidence - complete bullshit.

You are 0 for 2 on your bullshit claims.

I was rammed into the rear of another car years ago. The report showed that I had been stopped completely for enough time with proper distance, that I had my foot still on the brake, and that the F-250 that rammed into me was going too fast on wet pavement.

He ended up paying for fixing both ends of my car as well as the back end of the car in front of me.

At one time, some insurance companies (and law enforcement) would consider a hitch that was beyond the bumper as the error of the person driving it - the idea at that time was that you either had the hitch in use as the rear bumper would then be on the towed platform, or with no hitch using the bumper on your vehicle.

As a different situation, look at vehicles that are either raised or lowered - if the bumper is out of the normal height specifications, it increases the chance that the driver of that vehicle will be assigned a greater percentage of fault. I know I always didn't like looking at someone's front bumper over the back end of my car.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
You also claimed that insurance rates were higher due to truck drivers leaving hitches on. Show your work on that one or retract it. Quit spreading BS.

You have no evidence for any of the claims you have made. Zero evidence - complete bullshit.

You are 0 for 2 on your bullshit claims.

No, you just aren't willing to extend things out properly. Not everything has been studied to the point that you can pin it down to an exact number. But you can extrapolate using other data to give a rough estimate.

I do a lot of data mining in my job, extrapolating things out and making best estimate guesses based on data available is part of what I do.

But if I had access to insurance data I could probably pin the number down to a smaller range, and even do it on an area basis. But going on publicly available information 20-30% increase in costs is a reasonable estimate.

Big Bore...my condolences on your adventures on 280...I work in Inverness and deal with it everyday....How about all the changes that the ALDOT / Skipper Engineering has made with the ring around the rosie aka no left turns lanes only U turns that you can make now?

Unfortunately I can't fault Skipper Engineering on their design or the ALDOT for the sins of the father. The sins of the father being Scrushy and a few other unscrupulous characters in Montgomery "selling" access to 280 back in the day....

Here's to the fact that no little ones were hurt!

Let me make a wild guess here...

PPMG: Your eyes are brown, correct?

Because you are so full of sh!t. You are making up "statistics" on the fly, with no proof.

You seem to think that anyone who does things differently from you is uncaring, destructive, mean, etc.

WTF, man? Who appointed you the arbiter of what is correct or accepted habits for such matters as a mundane damned hitch?

Your statement about many states having laws that require the removal of the stinger portion of the hitch are bogus... I'd like to see some statistics. I retired from a career in LE that specialized in knowing and enforcing equipment violations. In fact, for vehicles under 10,000 pounds GVWR, there is not even a requirement for a bumper, let alone any additional law requiring removal of the stinger/ball. Take a look in the vehicle inventory of any nearby dealer who sells pickup trucks... What do you notice? They are shipped from the factory with NO BUMPER, except for the really upscale models where the rear bumper is a styling feature.

What I've taken too many words to convey: Lighten the hell up!

Don

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
Actually I am serious, the whole point of the bumper is to lower the cost of low speed accidents.

As someone who deals with this stuff every day, I'd argue against this. It doesn't take much to ruin a bumper considering that modern cars/trucks are designed to take the impact so that the people in the vehicle don't. And if the other vehicle has a steel bumper, there might actually less damage if the hitch stops the car from completely assfucking it.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMDBS:
No, you just aren't willing to extend things out properly. Not everything has been studied to the point that you can pin it down to an exact number. But you can extrapolate using other data to give a rough estimate.

I do a lot of data mining in my job, extrapolating things out and making best estimate guesses based on data available is part of what I do.

But if I had access to insurance data I could probably pin the number down to a smaller range, and even do it on an area basis. But going on publicly available information 20-30% increase in costs is a reasonable estimate.

In other words back to square one - no evidence even for the 20% number you made up when your other numbers were exposed as made up bullshit.

There is NO EVIDENCE that it costs more to fix one car than 2. There is NO EVIDENCE that insurance rates have increased due to someone leaving a hitch on their truck.

You've been exposed. Your theory is based on made up bullshit numbers that you came up with out of thin air to support your holier than thou attitude against a fellow forum member who was in an accident today.

Shame on you.

OK time for everyone to go to their rooms.

Trailer receivers do increase the chance of injury to the person/persons in a vehicle with them when hit in the back.

Today's bumpers are designed to absorb impact, especially low speed impacts. Trailer receivers bolt to the frame and transfer energy to the frame without absorbing it like a bumper does.

I'm not wading into the percentage increase or whether you should remove it every time. While they may reduce damage to the vehicle they are one they certainly increase your chance of injury. That injury is often whiplash.

Dude, when you are in a deep hole, just stop digging. Seriously, put the shovel down.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:
No, you just aren't willing to extend things out properly. Not everything has been studied to the point that you can pin it down to an exact number. But you can extrapolate using other data to give a rough estimate.

I do a lot of data mining in my job, extrapolating things out and making best estimate guesses based on data available is part of what I do.

But if I had access to insurance data I could probably pin the number down to a smaller range, and even do it on an area basis. But going on publicly available information 20-30% increase in costs is a reasonable estimate.

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:
OK time for everyone to go to their rooms.

Trailer receivers do increase the chance of injury to the person/persons in a vehicle with them when hit in the back.

Today's bumpers are designed to absorb impact, especially low speed impacts. Trailer receivers bolt to the frame and transfer energy to the frame without absorbing it like a bumper does.

I'm not wading into the percentage increase or whether you should remove it every time. While they may reduce damage to the vehicle they are one they certainly increase your chance of injury. That injury is often whiplash.

That's a reasonable and rational take that I doubt any would take exception with. Like I said early on, I don't care if he removes his hitch after every use, more power to him if he chooses to do that.

However when some holier than thou BS artist starts calling a member who was in an accident today a selfish bastard because he had a hitch on his truck, that's not gonna work for me.

Either the numbers he spouted exist or it's bullshit, and we all know which this is - made up bullshit that was just thrown out there because his argument wasn't working and he had no rational response or rebuttal when his emotional opinion was rejected.

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
There is NO EVIDENCE that it costs more to fix one car than 2. There is NO EVIDENCE that insurance rates have increased due to someone leaving a hitch on their truck.

Actually I have some evidence that two cars being damaged can be pretty damn expensive. I was ass ended in my 2004 911 Carrera. The 911 was totaled and the 2002 Accord had 3,500 in damages. About ~$60,000 total damages. Had my Porsche driven away unharmed and the Accord totaled, about ~$11,000. Add in my lost time to find a replacement car, buy it, and license it, the costs go up about another ~$1,000. Anybody know where I can get a class III hitch for my current Boxster?

BamaJeepster,
You are focusing on the tree and not seeing the forest, I gave that extrapolated number not because I am giving testimony to Congress, but as an example to illustrate my point. I actually was being conservative, I think the number could easily be higher.

Everyone seems to think that costs incurred to others don't matter to them. Or that their choices that incurs costs to themselves don't affect others. That is a great Libertarian fantasy, and it doesn't just manifest itself here but in other threads like the helmet law thread. Through insurance mandates, and other laws there is a lot shared responsibilities that results our actions not just affecting one party but society as a whole.

Bigboreshooters may not have incurred a direct cost thanks to his hitch preventing the car from hitting his bumper. But he will incur indirect costs from his choice, and his hitch almost certainly did more additional damage to his vehicle than it would've incurred with a proper bumper to bumper impact. And since there wasn't enough force for the car to continue to impact his truck after hitting the hitch more than likely there would've been minimal damage without the hitch, as if there was enough force the car would've crumpled around the hitch continuing to hit his car (based on the straight on hit described by the OP). And then you add in injuries because you don't have the proper bumper to bumper deceleration. All those costs are likely to be borne by insurance, I know my in my case it would be as I have collision/comp even on my paid off vehicles.

And considering that 40-50% of all vehicles have a hitch (per SEMA). It is easy to see that cases like Bigboreshooter's are hardly unusual. If we lived in that Libertarian fantasy world maybe these things wouldn't matter, but we don't.

But hey you won't believe it unless it is written on in a research paper.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
Actually I have some evidence that two cars being damaged can be pretty damn expensive. I was ass ended in my 2004 911 Carrera. The 911 was totaled and the 2002 Accord had 3,500 in damages. About ~$60,000 total damages. Had my Porsche driven away unharmed and the Accord totaled, about ~$11,000. Add in my lost time to find a replacement car, buy it, and license it, the costs go up about another ~$1,000. Anybody know where I can get a class III hitch for my current Boxster?

You are driving a German Sports car, you even look at it the wrong way and they are totaled.

I put a bumper hitch drawbar style, on my Jeep truck when I bought it in new 1989, and it's never been off. It's bolted on.
It did save me from any damage once when a careless woman punched me from behind at a red light. Her plastic grill and her bumper cover were busted. They would have been busted either way, and likely her headlights too if not for the hitch penetrating into the metal beam behind the bumper cover and stopping her car. Plus, I would have had a damaged bumper.
Total cost to repair would likely have been tripled or more, if not for the hitch.
I expect it can work both ways.