SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Off-duty pilot charged with 83 counts of attempted murder for allegedly trying to shutdown engines on US flight
Main Page The Lounge Off-duty pilot charged with 83 counts of attempted murder for allegedly trying to shutdown engines on US flightGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
Yes, and it is getting ever more difficult to get medical or psychological treatment off the books. In the more distant past, pilots could pay cash without using insurance, and thus be invisible to the FAA. Even completely innocuous things can trigger complications with one's medical, so pilots tend to avoid unnecessarily raising issues. Some pilots would seek help for addictions or short term anxiety/depression (think divorce or other major life problem) and not report it to the FAA. They should not have done this without working with their FAA doc, and yes they would have been out of work for a year or more. But at least they sought help and, hopefully, did not fly if they were not fit to fly that day. Today it is very difficult to find a provider who is not part of a larger corporation and who does not enter patient records into a centralized computer database. Thus the pilot may be more inclined to not seek help when needed, thinking he will tough it out. This is of course wrong, but it happens sometimes. | |||
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| Member |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Seeing a solo provider and paying cash solves the problem. Records need to be kept but insurance does not need to be filed. Of course if the pilot is a danger to himself or others some reporting is in order. There is,however more of a reluctance for a pilot to seek help. | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
True but it is getting ever more difficult. Wrt psych counseling, going to a private practice is still likely to be private, more so if one pays with cash. Some providers do not accept any insurance at all, and psychologists are usually very concerned about privacy for their clients. I know pilots who have gone for marriage counseling and had their wife as the identified client with the pilot's name not on any paperwork, and they paid cash. I've heard of pilots paying cash for services using a false name to keep off the radar. My urologist, now retired, was a solo provider private practice but he put everything into the computerized records of a large conglomerate. I presume as an approved provider for their system who used their surgical facility for his procedures. My present day primary care doc does the same and has full access to all my previous medical records (urologist, colonoscopy reports, etc). I am a cash customer, no insurance, yet both docs filled in the numerical code sheet for each visit and it was entered into the computer. The good news is that the FAA has become less punitive. For example, the HIMS program allows self-reporting pilots to go through substance abuse rehab and get back to flying upon successful completion. When Viagra first came out it had a long no-fly period after use, maybe 72 hours? The FAA was worried about color vision changes. It made the drug unusable for most pilots given the typical work schedules. I expect a lot of pilots found ways to get the pills off the books. I think the newer ED meds have much reduced restrictions. Most pilots are extremely responsible about being fit to fly, so I don't want to give the wrong impression. But I'd rather a slightly depressed pilot take antidepressants than not seek any help at all. | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
unintended consequences of government regulation, not much unlike the red flag laws, nobody who owns a firearm will ever report or talk to anyone about mental health issues for fear of being red flagged and all firearms taken. The law designed to "protect" people from those who need mental help, ie divorce, loss of spouse, loss of parent/kids basically encourages those same people to stay hidden and not seek care. | |||
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Tinker Sailor Soldier Pie |
The crazy ass pilot is claiming that he was on Magic Mushrooms. Me thinks that he may have consumed a bit too much. ********** Off-duty pilot may have been on psychedelic mushrooms when he tried to shut off plane engines, official says https://news.yahoo.com/off-dut...17.html?guccounter=1 ~Alan Acta Non Verba NRA Life Member (Patron) God, Family, Guns, Country Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
edit: Balze beat me to it. I'm going to guess there is more to the story, like maybe a hot woman who wasn't his wife. https://katu.com/news/local/pi...nternational-airport | |||
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| Member |
I bet she was crazy too. lol | |||
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| Member |
What is amazing are the comments from idiots proudly proclaiming they drive while on drugs. I have seen enough crashes due to people on all kinds of drugs, including marijuana, and how they all say it is not a problem. | |||
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| wishing we were congress |
https://www.foxbusiness.com/li...y-trying-cut-engines Prosecutors also say that Emerson told law enforcement officers that he was having a "nervous breakdown" and had not slept in 40 hours when he allegedly tried to shut down the plane's engine. "I didn’t feel okay. It seemed like the pilots weren’t paying attention to what was going on. They didn’t…it didn’t seem right," Emerson allegedly said. "Yah…I pulled both emergency shut off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up." A spokesperson for Alaska Airlines pointed Fox News Digital to an updated statement on the incident. According to the statement, Emerson has been removed from service "indefinitely" and relieved of all duties at Alaska Airlines. The details in the DOJ affidavit describing the actions of our flight crew are consistent with our understanding of what occurred based on debriefings with each member of the flight crew. Upon exiting the flight deck, both Flight Attendants confirmed that Emerson was escorted by a Flight Attendant to the rear of the aircraft where Emerson was placed in wrist restraints and belted into the aft jump seat. Our crew also confirmed that Emerson attempted to grab the handle of the emergency exit during the aircraft’s descent before being stopped by a Flight Attendant," Alaska Airlines said. "Consistent with our pilots’ collective bargaining agreement, we are consulting with our partners in labor regarding his employment status." "we are consulting with our partners in labor regarding his employment status." hope that isn't a long discussion | |||
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Coin Sniper |
"WHY IS THAT OFF DUTY PILOT STILL SITTING IN THE COCKPIT??" "WHY ARE YOU NOT STOMPING HIS GUTS OUT???" Pronoun: His Royal Highness and benevolent Majesty of all he surveys 343 - Never Forget Its better to be Pavlov's dog than Schrodinger's cat There are three types of mistakes; Those you learn from, those you suffer from, and those you don't survive. | |||
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| Ignored facts still exist |
No attempted murder convictions for him. Tell a good enough story and you get let off on the charges I guess. Oregon grand jury indicts Alaska Airlines pilot on lower charges By Conrad Wilson (OPB) Dec. 5, 2023 1 p.m. Updated: Dec. 5, 2023 3:48 p.m. A Multnomah County grand jury has decided the off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot who in October tried to shut down an airplane’s engines mid-flight during what appears to have been a drug-induced mental health crisis, should not face 83 counts of attempted murder. Instead, jurors opted this week to charge Joseph David Emerson with 83 misdemeanor counts of recklessly endangering another person — far lighter crimes if he’s convicted. He also faces a single count of endangering an aircraft, a felony. Since late October, Multnomah County prosecutors have asked grand jurors whether Emerson, 44, should be indicted for breaking Oregon law Oct. 22 — more than 30,000 feet in the sky — somewhere between Astoria and Portland. That’s when Emerson, who was catching a ride home from Everett, Washington, to San Francisco, seated in the cockpit jumpseat of an Embraer 175 jet operated by Horizon Airlines, removed headphones from his ears and, according to court records, declared: “I’m not OK,” before proceeding to nearly cut off the plane’s fuel supply midflight. Witnesses have said he was acting erratically and was seemingly confused about his reality. “I pulled both emergency shut-off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up,” Emerson told police, according to court documents. “I was trying to wake up. I didn’t feel like this was real.” Under Oregon law, any person charged with a felony receives either a preliminary hearing or has the case against them heard by a grand jury. Since his arrest at Portland International Airport, Emerson, a father, husband and experienced commercial airline pilot, has remained lodged in the Multnomah County Detention Center. Emerson’s attorneys, Noah Horst, Ethan Levi and Norah Van Dusen, said they’re working on a release plan and expect he’ll be out of jail and back home in California by the end of the week. “The attempted murder charges were never appropriate in this case because Captain Emerson never intended to hurt another person or put anyone at risk — he just wanted to return home to his wife and children,” Emerson’s defense team said in a statement. “Simply put: Captain Emerson thought he was in a dream; his actions were taken in a single-minded effort to wake up from that dream and return home to his family.” The incident has drawn national attention, in part because initial court records and news accounts made it appear Emerson was attempting to seize control of the aircraft while high on hallucinogenic mushrooms. Emerson’s case is playing out in Multnomah County because that’s where the jet was diverted and ultimately landed safely. Although it has almost nothing to do with the core public safety challenges facing Oregon’s most populous county — where prosecutors face a mountain of challenges that include a dearth of public defenders, spiking drug use and the ongoing homelessness crisis. Yet prosecutors have invested more than a month calling police officers, pilots and others before six grand jurors. At nearly the same time as local prosecutors, the U.S. Department of Justice charged Emerson with a federal crime: interference with flight crew members and attendants. He has pleaded not guilty to all criminal charges. Emerson’s lawyers argue their client had no criminal intent and said they were disappointed the grand jury indicted on even less serious charges. “The grand jury is a largely secretive process controlled by the prosecution and defense counsel are not permitted to make any arguments at grand jury,” Emerson’s defense team stated. “Thus, while we believe the Multnomah County District Attorney’s office treated Mr. Emerson fairly, we do not know why the grand jury arrived at its charging decision, nor have we had an opportunity to examine all the evidence the district attorney ultimately presented to the grand jury.” Oregon prosecutors rarely file charges of recklessly engaging an aircraft. During the last five years, local prosecutors have never filed it as a felony, according to the Oregon Judicial Department. The Multnomah County District Attorney’s Office filed it twice as a misdemeanor, in 2018 and again in 2020, but in both cases the defendants were not convicted of the charge, according to court records. Emerson, who rose to the rank of captain at Alaska Airlines, has flown for more than 20 years as a commercial pilot. The days leading up to that moment on Oct. 22, were emotionally intense for him, according to family members and his own comments to investigators. Emerson had spent the weekend of the flight remembering and grieving his closest friend, Scott Pinney, who died suddenly five and a half years ago. Emerson told police he had not slept in more than 40 hours and took psychedelic mushrooms sometime on Oct. 20, two days before boarding the Horizon Airlines flight home. https://www.opb.org/article/20...mental-health-crime/ . | |||
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Told cops where to go for over 29 years… |
Just a thought - if the Feds regulate air travel, maybe this should be a federal violation instead of being at the whim of looney lefty State courts? City/County/State has no jurisdiction 2’ past some imaginary line on the ground between city/county/state borders but they can extend jurisdiction for miles above their borders? Plane was flying from CA to WA, sounds like interstate commerce to me. On a lightly related note regarding medical records and “privacy”… Years ago my Doc refused to give me an RX for epi-pen since I hadn’t been stung in years and therefore my hyper allergic response to a bee/wasp sting may have gone away (stepped in hive at age 5, stung a few hundred times). Last time I was stung at age 18 it was in my forearm and I had an anaphylactic response with my throat swelling causing breathing difficulties. A few months back, I used a tele-health visit with a different provider before going to Guatemala specifically to get an epi-pen since I would be some distance from medical care in an environment with things that sting. He sent an RX to my local Bartells and I paid for it out of pocket as I had no medical/drug insurance at the time. Fast forward to this week and I had my annual physical. Now having insurance again, going back to my “regular” doctor. In my after visit summary I was surprised to see that the epi-pen rx was now listed in my medications. I asked the nurse how they got that info since it was done outside of this provider and insurance. Evidently it is standard practice for pharmacies to report Rx they receive from one Dr to every other Dr they have on file for that person. Now, I can understand this for things like narcotic pain meds etc. but for something like an epi-pen it seems a little overboard. I’ve never heard of epi-pen abuse. On the bright side, I guess now that it is in my file it may be easier in the future to get another Rx if needed at some point. What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???  | |||
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| Member |
Just one guy's opinion, and I am aware I will take significant flack for it... but I think the prosecutor overcharged in this particular case. Taken in context, I do not think that attempted murder (the original charge, X 83) was his intent, nor was it the likely outcome of his actions. That said, his aviation career is over, and his reputation - and rightly so - is irreparably damaged. IMHO, justice was served, and he will pay an appropriately high price. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
My first reaction was similar. Shutting off the engine(s) does not force a crash or necessarily any injuries. Sure it can happen if a suitable landing spot is not available or the crew are not able to get the airplane safely to the ground, but…. This was immediately followed by the second thought, “Don’t prosecutors usually ‘shoot for the moon’, charging anything and everything that might be appropriate? The more charges a person is looking at, the better a plea may look. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
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| Member |
Our SF pilots may know more about this but IIRC there is a Federal charge that may apply: 18 USC 32A5. Concerning interference with someone in operation of an aircraft. End of Earth: 2 Miles Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
There would be several potential federal charges, but I think they all suffer the same problem as the attempted murder charge - did he have a true intent to interfere with the crew? He certainly should be charged with a felony of some sort. His actions were more than misdemeanor level, as he could have easily caused many deaths. He attempted to shut down both engines, and even at altitude that is a serious situation. Restarting both engines in flight with both pilots on task will take a couple of minutes minimum. If one or both pilots had to restrain the guy then that increases the problem exponentially. | |||
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| Member |
He is using psychedic mushrooms as an excuse. Not mentally ill but under the influence. Should carry a higher penalty. | |||
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| No More Mr. Nice Guy |
Agreed! Officially when in the jumpseat, a pilot is an "Additional Crew Member". There have been jumpseaters prosecuted in the past when the working pilots did something wrong. The ACM could potentially be charged with just as serious a crime as if one of the pilots had done the same thing. There must be some form of felony he could be charged with. | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
Yep. Voluntary impairment is not a defense. | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Off-duty pilot charged with 83 counts of attempted murder for allegedly trying to shutdown engines on US flight
Main Page The Lounge Off-duty pilot charged with 83 counts of attempted murder for allegedly trying to shutdown engines on US flight© SIGforum 2024