I'm surprised at how steadfastly Socialists hold on to their ideology in the very face of failure. They find a way to rationalize it away while maintaining the basic destructive ideals.

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I'm surprised at how steadfastly Socialists hold on to their ideology

They are not holding on to their ideology. They are holding on for their lives. They know, that with the mess they have made, and the money they have stolen, that when the balloon goes up, they will be first against the wall. So the only option is to double down, repress, and hope to ride it through, just like the Kims in NK, the Castros in Cuba, or Mugabe in Zimbabwe.

They saw what happened to Ceausescu, Qaddafi, Milosevic, et. al., and they don't want to be those guys. Going from billionaire to bullet riddled corpse is a shitty journey, and they are under no illusions about what awaits when the revolution comes.

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Originally posted by reloader-1:

quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

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...feel free to live in shit.

Guess you weren't paying attention.

We lived through eight years of it.

Still are fighting it, to undo it - and to prevent furtherance of it.

They voted for it in MUCH larger percentage than here. Well into the 90%+ percentile.

Apples and oranges. Try again.

Their suffering must continue until they realize they must now put their collective asses on the line and depose the dictator they supported.

Jager, you probably don’t know this but I hold dual US and Venezuelan passports.

Where on earth did you draw the conclusion of 90%?!

Chávez won the 1998 election with 56% of the vote, and substantial allegations of fraud. Since then, every election has been completely rigged. The recall vote in 2004 was 58% to 41%, but by that point the entire election apparatus was firmly under their control.

Quite frankly, you are hallucinating if you believe that 90% number. Even in government controlled elections, with opposition parties banned (ala Russia) in 2018, they’ve never dared to credit more than 64% of the vote, and even that is laughable. This is definitely not an apples and oranges situation, sadly - it’s a peek into the future of the US if we don’t right the ship.

90+% are living in poverty. My mistake.

And 90% of the Constituent Assembly was quickly filled by the MVR (Chavistas), that also quickly voted to rewrite the Constitution, eliminating the senate - and virtually crushing any hopes of an opposition party ever winning election through the new rule of law. 2018? Naw. Chavez made sure that happened within a year after taking power.

Virtually every vote since - propping up power of Chavez and Maduro - until the recent collapse and fraud - was at 65%.

65%...90%...you can have that one. But when 2 out of 3 Venezuelans voted, they loved their socialist free stuff.

So much so, that well over 90% turned in their firearms after the 2012 ban. Guess they still didn't see the portend. That was Chavez.

The people hallucinating are the idiot Venezuelans sitting in their homes, mindlessly rubbing their bellies and flipping light switches on and off, hoping their government will fix things and get them their free shit back.

I held dual citizenship here and Germany. I renounced the latter. To each his own, but I'm of the mind you should only be a citizen of the country you're willing to pick up a rifle for.

Travel plans? They might need some low-flying lead (LFL) there.

I do hope we can stem the stupid here, but I am not optimistic, even with Venezuela as a current example.

Jager, thanks for your thoughts.

If you go back and read what I wrote, I specifically called out the 65% as a farce. Every election since the 1998 Chavez one has been completely rigged (here’s a hint: they had to call in Jimmy Carter to legitimize them...)

Since 2002/2004, the ruling power has had the support of much less than 50% of the population, but they do have Cuban, Russian, Iranian and Chinese military backing propping up Maduro.

Several hundred individuals have already died, and it’s looking like it will take the deaths of tens of thousands to bring about change. I really hope that is not the case, but I fear the worst.

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Several hundred individuals have already died, and it’s looking like it will take the deaths of tens of thousands to bring about change. I really hope that is not the case, but I fear the worst.

Like any socialist dictatorship, the powers that be couldn’t give a flying flippity fuck how many die from starvation, natural disaster, or government bullets. It just means there are less of them to try and do something about deplorable conditions. There won’t be any change that doesn’t come from outside the bubble.

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I specifically called out the 65% as a farce

As if that actually matters.

I conceded that I got the number incorrect. But don't dance around the elephant in the room.

It's who counts the votes. And if you try to claim Venezuelans did not know Chavez was a socialist and what the portend of that might be - then they are what - stupid in general? Ignorant? Cowardly? Selfish? Greedy? Lazy?

They were cheated out of a representative democracy? Which corner are you on peddling that garbage? Deceptive Narrative Boulevard and False Pride Drive? Regardless, they have largely sat by and done NOTHING - even when they had firearms.

49%? 51%? 85%? I'm trying to figure out what your point is. If you're trying to posit that large numbers of Venezuelans didn't vote for free shit - that would be a fail.

Mine is that they allowed a self-serving regime set (Chavez, Maduro) get into power out of selfish self-interest. And they allowed themselves to be disarmed. And how many accepted the Chavista Checks?

It's dark in Caracas. And clean water is nowhere. Here it comes if they don't sack up.

Venezuela has been ruled by caudillos ever since becoming independent. They are accustomed to a boot on their neck.

It's what they allow.

Chains heavy? Stomach growling? Dark outside, isn't it? How's sis doing in the hospital with that gonorrhea she caught earning money to buy some squash? Diapers for little Diego? Tampons for the wife? Mom's blood pressure medication in yet?

Until tens of thousands of them take to the streets and shut everything down (a tiny task at this juncture) - they can stew in their own juices.

Maybe pray for some Yankee imperialist dog to come save them - with more free shit.

I know you're asking, but I've checked everywhere and have no fucks to give.

Jager, we will agree to disagree on this.

Life is cheap in Venezuela. It’s easy to sit in our chairs in the US or Europe, but there have been hundreds of thousands protesting on a constant basis.

As to your gun control point, how little do you know. Venezuelan firearms owners have been registered for decades, and there were far less of them per capita than in the US. It was a trivial matter to force owners to surrender them, the alternative was a quick death or perhaps worse, a long incarceration in horrendous conditions.

With no ability to organize, what could an individual do? Their families would also die or worse.

Lastly, Venezuela is a country of very defined socioeconomic classes. The morons voting in Chavez are the same kind who vote for Alexandra OC here in the US; poor, economically illiterate idiots. That does not mean you should paint the other 45% of the population with that brush.

I’ve lost family members in damn near every generation fighting for freedom. I don’t expect that to ever change, and my cousin is one of the most prominent opposition voices in the Asemblea Nacional.

As I mentioned before, this will end in bloodshed, and I am saddened for those who will suffer.

Reloader-1, you need to know that I'm with you insomuch as the human suffering there goes hard against my grain. However, the history of socialism is there for all to see.

The agitprops say vote for me, I'll seize the wealth from the rich oppressors and give it to you. Free stuff. Sounds good. The commies get elected. They seize the wealth. Keep 85% for themselves and dole out just enough to the dumb-ass proletariat to make them think their quality of life just got a promotion.

Then the guns get banned - for security and safety. Those evil capitalists are still among us! We must disarm them! Blinded by the free stuff, no-one asks how giving up THEIR firearm disarms a right wing boogeyman.

Then the spigot begins to go dry. And ultimately, stops. When the music stops - oops, no chairs left. But in Miraflores - the wealth is stacked high and deep.

Which example have they missed? Nicaragua? Bolivia? Cuba? Honduras? Guatemala? Argentina? Chile?

The siren song captivated them. The free stuff is no more. And what is available can't be purchased when a few loaves of bread costs an entire monthly paycheck. And now they have soldiers standing on bridges, at ports and airports and on roads - making sure life-saving medical supplies and food cannot get to the them. 3 million have left.

What if 3 million had marched on Caracas?

Or a tenth of the 45% you mention?

And the new opposition leader? His announced plan is what the country needs. But the people are largely unwilling to put themselves on the line to force Maduro to cede power. Yes, many have protested - and there have been some flagrant actions - but largely, the people are essentially agreeing to let 'someone else' do the actual work.

That is Venezuela today.

Jager -- I would like to respectfully suggest that reloader-1 knows whereof he speaks.

I'm not sure whether I should say anything more in a public forum, but my email address is in my profile if you would like to contact me.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I’ve lost family members in damn near every generation fighting for freedom. I don’t expect that to ever change, and my cousin is one of the most prominent opposition voices in the Asemblea Nacional.

As I mentioned before, this will end in bloodshed, and I am saddened for those who will suffer.

reloader,
Thank you to you and your family members lost fighting for freedom. Freedom is a world wide struggle, which never ends. We in the US still have it pretty good, compared to the rest of the world. We should all realize that freedom is a natural right. It is written in the hearts of men and only deprived by governments, world wide.

Our founding fathers had it right in the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

The real problem starts when the looted markets are not restocked.

What feeds the cities then?

When this goes really ugly, as in civil war / insurrection, the starvation will be massive.

Not one Marine life

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In a democracy the will of the majority is supreme.

Welcome to Venezuela, the latest shining exemplar of the triumphant socialism.

In 2013, David Sirota summarized the prevailing sentiment of the left in his article “Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle.” He wrote, “The Venezuelan leader was often marginalized as a radical. But his brand of socialism achieved real economic gains.”

It was then. Today, “real economic gains” resulted in complete collapse of the economy; hyperinflation, the blackouts, shortages of food and medicines, lack of basic services and three million of refugees. It proves what should be self-evident — democratic socialism, loved and revered by American socialists, is substantively no different from any other socialist brands.

Yet the true believers do not relinquish ideas that have been disproved repeatedly by historical precedents, and no amount of reality can shake their convictions. For them, acceptance of reality equates to a denial of faith.

It’s always the same — this time it is different; this time socialism is democratic. So, what is this mysterious democratic socialism? The defining characteristic of democratic socialism is its relation between power and legitimacy. Democratic socialists use legitimacy to gain power and then use power to validate their legitimacy. They took a page from their Bolshevik predecessors whose peculiar relation between power and legitimacy was defined by Yaakov Sverdlov, the chairman of the Bolshevik Central Executive Committee, who famously declared, “power is always legitimate because power makes laws.”

Regardless of how the socialists came to power, and despite some differences in interpretation between Christian democratic socialism, Soviet-style revolutionary socialism, social democratic socialism or any other kind of socialism, they all are branches of the same egalitarian tree that produced Marxism, Leninism, and Stalinism and share the common mantra, “fair and equitable.”

The differences are superficial. The goal of socialism is economic equality. The ultimate irony is that economic equality can only be achieved in poverty. There is no equality in wealth. In this context, socialism always works, it works as it is supposed to. Venezuela is not socialism’s failure; it is actually a fulfillment.

Democratic socialism is the Marxist’s Trojan horse. It enacts socialism by installing the Hugo Chavezes of this world through the democratic process.

Whether the Venezuelans voted for socialist serfdom knowingly or not is irrelevant. In a democracy the will of the majority is supreme. Hugo Chavez was a democratically elected leader of Venezuela and enjoyed wide popular support. Nicolás Maduro is his legal successor. We have to respect the people’s will and let them have it. They deserve it. Elections have consequences. For Americans who haven’t learned much in school or suffered a memory loss and voted for Democrats in the last elections, Venezuela is a foretaste of what is yet to come.

Some hotheads in Washington are contemplating military intervention. Whatever the underlining justification for intervention may be, there is no inevitable necessity for it, neither from security nor from political considerations.

Although the United States has every reason historically and geopolitically to prevent Latin America from going socialist, the most efficient way to do so is nurture and preserve Venezuela’s socialist rule as an example for other psychopaths calling for equality and left-wing lunatics willing to vote for it. But, most importantly, from geopolitical point of view, what would be the lesson? If irresponsible voters need fear no consequence other than a return to status quo ante, would a recurrence of democratic socialism somewhere else including the US not be likely?

A military intervention may turn into another unmitigated disaster costing American lives and billions of dollars. We will undoubtedly end up morally invested in Venezuela helping to rebuild failed nations at the expense of American taxpayers.

I do not personally regard the whole of Venezuela, even if it burns down to the ground, as worth the life of a single American Marine.

The great axiom of political science is to never interfere with an enemy that is about to destroy itself.

Alexander G. Markovsky (@AlexMarkovsky) is a senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research, a conservative think hosted at King’s College, New York City, which examines national security, energy, risk-analysis and other public policy issues, He is the author of “Anatomy of a Bolshevik” and “Liberal Bolshevism: America Did Not Defeat Communism, She Adopted It.” He is the owner and CEO of Litwin Management Services, LLC.

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A military intervention may turn into another unmitigated disaster costing American lives and billions of dollars. We will undoubtedly end up morally invested in Venezuela helping to rebuild failed nations at the expense of American taxpayers.

I do not personally regard the whole of Venezuela, even if it burns down to the ground, as worth the life of a single American Marine.

I completely agree.
When are we going to learn that it's not our problem?

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Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

A military intervention may turn into another unmitigated disaster costing American lives and billions of dollars. We will undoubtedly end up morally invested in Venezuela helping to rebuild failed nations at the expense of American taxpayers.

I do not personally regard the whole of Venezuela, even if it burns down to the ground, as worth the life of a single American Marine.

I completely agree.
When are we going to learn that it's not our problem?

That's a tough one. The problem with socialism and communism is that they metastasize. By the time we think we need to intervene it's already too late and it has spread. Like a wildfire, it's best to keep it away from your property by fighting it on other people's property. But, since our politicians and a large portion of the public has lost its heart for defending Liberty, we are in a place where we have to choose the hill we want to die on. I think Venezuela is not it since it is a failing socialist or even communist State. The danger of Socialism or communism spreading 2 the United States from Venezuela is pretty slim, more likely socialism will metastasize from within this nation. So the hill we want to die on is in our yard.

I agree Darth.
We have to fight socialism at home not in other countries.
They have to fight for their own freedom. Once lost it's hard to get back.
Venezuela should be a lesson for us but it's not our fight.

I agree with Markovsky’s article.

Not one American should die for Venezuela, and I hope none do.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I agree with Markovsky’s article.

Not one American should die for Venezuela, and I hope none do.

I also agree with the article and no Americans should die for Venezuela. There is one Venezuelan though, a guy named Maduro, it might not be a bad thing if he died for Venezuela.

Russian Troops, Aid Arrive In Venezuela After Delivering Red Line Warning To Trump



Just days after a high-level meeting in Rome this week, during which Russia reiterated a grave warning to the US – Moscow will not tolerate American military intervention to topple the Venezuelan government with whom it is allied - it appears Russia is taking no chances with its South American ally.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news...tervention-venezuela

^^^^
Oh goody- the Russians have arrived; that'll solve the human rights issues, right?

Posturing bullshit. Vlad knows damn well we have no interest in attempting to topple these turds.

Well, think in terms of US "advisers". Are they there to provide technical support? Training? Fighting capability? It's hard to say exactly what role they'll play and how far they'll go if there's a fight.