quote:

Originally posted by rusbro:
Hmmmm...science denial, anyone?

I thought all this science was settled quite a while ago?

quote:

Originally posted by 46and2:
People have cared about gender roles for as long as there's been civilization, including nowadays, whether it's in regard to military service in combat roles or equal pay for equal work or the right to vote or how one dresses or what toys they play with and a plethora of areas where many assert that there is a clear difference, beyond ones genitalia, between "men" and "women", that there are "guy things" and "girl things" that extend beyond penis vs vagina, and if you think it's weird for a 16yo boy to wear a dress, etc, then you do too...

Maybe they have, but the usage of the word "gender" as defining a person's role in society has it's origins the SAME place the SJWs have their origins, early feminism. Which is odd, because early feminism (before the shit show it has become today) had several good points promoting the eschewing of gender roles. There is, however, a very healthy debate that could be had on the validity of traditional gender roles and whether they still have a place in modern society. That debate, however, should not include the need to refer to women who work full time as masculine or men who are primarily at home fathers as feminine. Gender roles are separate from sex/gender, sex and gender are not subject to opinion, gender ROLES are.

quote:

And I despise SJWs, fwiw. My opinion isn't for them, from them, or related to them by anything other than coincidence. I have no agenda beyond trying to understand, be open minded, and a willingness to discuss these things, here or anywhere else. It costs me nothing to consider it, hurts no one here even if it is true, so what's the problem? I don't use or care about the pronoun game - you'll never, ever, hear me call someone Ze (wtf).

So, there's anatomy, and there's everything else, and if for no other reason than facilitating conversation about such things - we need a word for "everything else". And ultimately - I don't care what particular word we use to refer to "everything else beyond private parts", whether Gender or CottonCandy or anything else, but I've not problem using Gender in lieu of a clear and commonly accepted alternative, and I think it makes sense, and so I use it. Got a better one, with some evidence to back it up? Spit it out. I'll certainly consider it.

Not long ago such Gender roles were reinforced on most sitcoms, from Leave It To Beaver to the rest. Terms and phrases like tomboy, man up, don't be a pussy, barefoot and in the kitchen, and the rest indicate there are clear and common ideas as to what constitutes being a man or woman, and in ways that clearly extend beyond their anatomy.

So what do you suggest?

You already used the established term for what you are asking for, "gender roles." Gender role describes a set of societal norms for people of a specific gender right? But that doesn't mean that people who feel happier in one role also magically become the gender to which it is attributed. If I walk into a large bank with a fancy suit and start acting like I' am the CEO of said bank, that doesn't make me the CEO, does it?

And don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from when you say you are trying to facilitate conversation, but language matters. If you let one side get away with redefining the words in use, it allows them to trick people who aren't paying full attention. It is misleading, and often times intentionally so.

As to your last point about gender roles being reinforced, this is where the disconnect is. You are using gender and gender role interchangeably I think. But the addition of the modifying word "role" on the end makes a world of difference. Society defines gender roles, biology defines gender. Allowing those lines to be muddied allows for the passage of ambiguous laws that once passed, are nearly impossible to get rid of (homeopathy is a good example of something with legal protection that doesn't deserve it, but now we have it and can't get rid of it).

Basically, allowing one side of an argument to dictate the language used, particularly when they are allowed t change the accepted meanings of said language, allows them to de facto make their own rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
Excellent post Ianfiniti. Right on the money, and I agree with everything except this.

quote:

Originally posted by Ianfiniti:
... and should definitely not let anyone else try to tell them how they should act because of their gender. It is literally the defining of gender AS A ROLE that is an issue. Gender is not a role, and your role should not be defined by gender, it should be defined by your desires (and anyone who doesn't like it can fuck right off).

Men should act like men and women should act like women. Of course, that's just my opinion, I happen to be right, and I'll kindly fuck right off now.

Well herein lies a huge part of the problem, you may be willing to have a differing opinion and then fuck off, but a large part of that SJW crowd are not. Your opinion HAS to match theirs or you are a fascist nazi racist misogynist asshole who deserves to have your tongue cut out and be chemically castrated before being thrown into prison.

They often do not know how to coexist with people who disagree with them, which leads to big issues in cases like this where facts disagree with them, because you can't change a fact, it simply is.

Honestly, I favor traditional gender roles as well, but I am not going to force someone else into doing something they don't want to do based on that opinion.

If you want to be a dress wearing, leg shaving, lisp-talking super fruit...well, I will probably make fun of you, but I won't go out of my way to try to ruin your career as some of these SJWs tend to do. I also won't campaign for the passage of laws that force you to stop doing all that stuff. Quite the opposite, I'll support both your right to do it AND my right to call you names for doing it.

Sex, gender role, gender, and sexuality, are all separate and distinct things.

None of them are a choice, they are all influenced by a variety of factors including genes, hormones, brain chemistry, environmental exposure, and more.

None of this shit is simple.

One thing is sure, though, it is the domain of adults.

Meaning, if you want to change your sex, or whatever, and you're over 21, go for it. You do you.

Where I draw a big fat line, is people who are letting their children be "gender fluid" or whatever they call it.

News flash. All children are gender fluid.

Children are busy learning how to exist. It's literally what they are supposed to do.

Now, we can expose them to societal norms and gender roles without hazing or otherwise traumatizing them.

What we should not do, is not define where the boundaries are. Children need examples of what is what. Rules to live by. They need structure.

If you don't teach your child how to People, you're an asshole.

Good, lucid posts, Ianfiniti.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Your birth sex is not a choice ~ homosexuality is a choice.

Not if you are wired that way at birth.

Yeah, I don't believe that any more than you get to choose your own sex.

+1. Yep.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by Hamden106:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Your birth sex is not a choice ~ homosexuality is a choice.

Not if you are wired that way at birth.

Yeah, I don't believe that any more than you get to choose your own sex.

+1. Yep.

X 2. It is simply rationalization of aberrant behavior. Nature rules.

quote:

Originally posted by Chance:
Really small sample size but I it would suggest that both gender and sex are determined in the womb. And sometimes those two don't match.

Are we completely discounting the very real possibility that the people to which you refer, which are indeed a very small minority of our society, just might develop as mentally ill from the very beginning?

Frankly I don’t give a shit. Keep that BS stowed and in your bedroom or with whomever/whatever your sleeping with. Don’t force it on me and I don’t care. Except for these “kids” that think their tranny’s. Mental issue right there and their parents should face child neglect charges for feeding into it and NOT getting them psychiatric help.

This whole discussion is stupid.

Sex = determined at birth

Gender = Sex but has recently been redefined as attributes of a person vs a actual definition. Behavioral, cultural, emotional, psychological, or roles in a relationship do not determine this. It is a synonym for Sex. I don't care what anyone tells me.

Masculinity vs Femininity is a sliding scale and a dude can be feminine and a chick can be masculine. I believe all people fall within a scale for this and further fall in a scale of this based on sex.

Working in retail settings I am amazed at the amount of feminine males that work in that role/industry. Every time I walk into a retail store I am amazed in the effeminate men working there. I had no clue that there were that many confused people out there, I assume 90% of them are also gay as well. Kind of shocking to me.

Either way you are either a dude or chick, you may have characteristics that are normally considered attributes of male or female, but the vast, vast majority are biologically one or the other. I don't care what you identify as, you are medically a dude or chick. Maybe given time I guess I could readjust to a redefinition of gender to be separate from sex and refer to attributes vs chromosomes, just not there yet.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Sex, gender role, gender, and sexuality, are all separate and distinct things.

None of them are a choice, they are all influenced by a variety of factors including genes, hormones, brain chemistry, environmental exposure, and more.

None of this shit is simple.

One thing is sure, though, it is the domain of adults.

Meaning, if you want to change your sex, or whatever, and you're over 21, go for it. You do you.

Where I draw a big fat line, is people who are letting their children be "gender fluid" or whatever they call it.

News flash. All children are gender fluid.

Children are busy learning how to exist. It's literally what they are supposed to do.

Now, we can expose them to societal norms and gender roles without hazing or otherwise traumatizing them.

What we should not do, is not define where the boundaries are. Children need examples of what is what. Rules to live by. They need structure.

If you don't teach your child how to People, you're an asshole.

I think most people(on this site anyway) would agree it is the domain of adults. But you specifically mention the age 21, in most places in the US you are allowed to make decisions about your own healthcare at 18. Would you consider that too young?

I agree with the "all children are gender fluid" thing though, at least with what I think you mean by it though perhaps not the literal meaning of the statement.

I distinctly remember when I was a young child playing with Barbie dolls at a friends house on at least one occasion. Why? Well we were at her house, not mine, and that is what she had. While my own toy collection at the time consisted primarily of Hot Wheels and giant robots with big guns...girl toys were better than no toys, so we played with those.

The issue these days, as many have pointed out, is that some parents today would see that behavior and think it meant more than it did, that I was somehow confused. I wasn't confused, I was just alleviating my boredom with what was available.

quote:

Originally posted by LS1 GTO:
IMO; this is the really scary part about our population:

quote:

Overall, roughly half of Americans (54%) say that whether someone is a man or a woman is determined by the sex they were assigned at birth, while 44% say someone can be a man or a woman even if that is different from the sex they were assigned at birth.

ONLY 54% of Americans understand science???

I'd be willing to bet the percentage is a great deal less than 54%.

IMNSHO, a person's sex is decided at conception, when the male sperm enters the female egg, and I do not even accept the concept of "gender" relating to humans--people have a "sex" fixed at conception; "gender" is an artificial construct of language used to decline nouns and pronouns, in many cases irrespective of sex. (In Latin, the word for "city" (urbs) is feminine; for "town" (oppidum) is neuter; and for "hamlet" (vicus) is masculine. There is no rhyme or reason for it--it just is. There is no logical linking of "gender" to "sex" (which is what the Left is trying to prove), but "gender" does not apply to living creatures--it is an arbitrary artifice that exists only in language.

flashguy

I'm still waiting for someone to describe to me their experience of deciding to be a heterosexual. When and how did you decide? Since we're saying things that aren't true, such as individuals "deciding" their sexual orientation, let's hear from the heterosexuals.

People need to cut the stupid shit with this sex vs. gender idiocy. It's very simple and if you wish to complicate it, I can only conclude that you must have an agenda, and that makes you part of the problem.

quote:

The survey also finds that Democrats with a bachelor’s degree or more education are more likely than other Democrats to say a person’s gender can be different from the sex they were assigned at birth. About three-quarters (77%) of Democrats with a bachelor’s degree or more say this, compared with 60% of Democrats with some college and 57% of those with a high school diploma or less.

Two interacting phenomena: Education has been gradually "dumbed down" such that many college degrees are utterly worthless. But "educated people" are desperate to show how superior they are due to their education. So they have a powerful motivation to accept ideas that are simply preposterous and violate common sense.
If an uneducated person comes to the same conclusions as an educated person, then what value was the education ? It would be implied that it was all a waste of time and money.

So, under the pretext of applying the greater depth and "open mindedness" of education, they actually become "empty headed".

I believe I notice this phenomenon because I didn't go back to school until well into my adulthood. Now, of course, I actually am a lot smarter than most people.

The idea that a man is really a woman is obviously utterly preposterous. It is a delusion...a mental illness. (Except in an extremely small number of cases of actual birth defects). A man could be "a man who is wimpy and effeminate" and "likes womanly activities", but he is still a man...and vice versa. If they want to live like a woman, dress like a woman, etc...fine....just don't expect sane people to participate in the mental illness.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
I'm still waiting for someone to describe to me their experience of deciding to be a heterosexual. When and how did you decide? Since we're saying things that aren't true, such as individuals "deciding" their sexual orientation, let's hear from the heterosexuals.

People need to cut the stupid shit with this sex vs. gender idiocy. It's very simple and if you wish to complicate it, I can only conclude that you must have an agenda, and that makes you part of the problem.

OK I'm probably stepping in it here, but I'll answer.

I made no decision that I can remember to be heterosexual, I never thought about this. I guess for the most part it was social norms and biological. Boys dated girls and men married woman in every book, magazine, or movie I was introduced to until I was aged in double digits or higher.

I can only guess that a guy that wants to be a girl, never made any decision to one day change their biological identity. They likely woke up that way since it goes against all other cultural norms that until recently have advanced a classical model of sexual relationships and gender. That by itself is a hard hurdle to overcome, who want's to be an outcast? Now I guess you are special instead of an outcast though.

Unobservantly, I am not sure where you fall on this, but this added a stone on the side of the scale for me on the side of people being born one way or another, nature vs nurture.

Either way if it's affected by perception and acceptance and now more people are openly different or something has changed in our genetic makeup it's an interesting thought experiment.

In the end I don't really care what anyone wants to do, or how they decide to act. With a few caveats. Don't expect me to give a fuck; change what I do; be financially responsible for your decisions, or calling you the wrong thing; and don't make me change my practices because of you. Pretty much, be cool with me, and I'm cool with you.

quote:

Are we completely discounting the very real possibility that the people to which you refer, which are indeed a very small minority of our society, just might develop as mentally ill from the very beginning?

I don't believe it's a choice, and I do believe it's a mental defect of some sort.

I'm not saying that to be demeaning. I have no problem with gays, transgenders, or any other person with whatever issues they have.

Some males are born thinking they are females. Some are born thinking they are tigers. No difference in my mind. It may be "who they are", but it's not "normal".

quote:

A man could be "a man who is wimpy and effeminate" and "likes womanly activities", but he is still a man...and vice versa. If they want to live like a woman, dress like a woman, etc...fine....just don't expect sane people to participate in the mental illness.

When I was in the army we had a guy who was eventually given a DD for being a homosexual.


He was the youngest of 9 children and the other 8 were all girls. So he grew up in family of 9 females. Any connection? I believe so, but have no actual proof.

Gay pride parades, transvestite bathrooms, all things flamboyant in your face, the desired new normal. Men remarking a lady looks especially nice today, unacceptable, the new normal. Hetro? then keep that shit at home in your bedroom!

Judge Moore might like very young females, like right at puberty.
He is merely wired this way if one follows the logic. Yet society wants a piece of his ass. ----> Why? child development?

The national debate should involve the effect on developing human children. Is pg/pg13/r, under 18, under 21, etc. predicated on valid reasoning or not?

edit to clarify - I'm in the valid category, adults should maintain public decorum. Mind fucking a child with adult sex thru public display, rhetoric, or touching can cause mental trauma, for life even. It also intrudes/inflicts ones belief/desires on other citizens right to raise their offspring as they see fit.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: springnr,

Personally, I think the term "gender" is being misused. Growing up in a multilingual environment (German), I was aware of three genders in language: masculine, feminine, and neuter. The usual example is knife, fork and spoon:

DAS Messer (Neuter, the knife)
DER Loeffel (Masculine, the spoon)
DIE Gabel (Feminine, the fork)

The term "gender" is being used as a politically correct language aversion to the term "sex." There are only two sexes: male and female. If you're breathing and "neuter," you've just had your sex organs removed.

lets all do a chromosome test shall we...

XX or XY?

only two possible outcomes

as with just about everything else, democrats and libtards are so full of shit it makes cattle ranches look pristine