That article listed in OP has an erroneous last paragraph:

quote:

The USS Phelps sank the hobbled Lexington with torpedoes, giving it the dubious distinction of being the first aircraft carrier to sink during wartime.

Maybe the first US carrier - the Brits lost several well before May 1942. A very brief search yields the following:

HMS Courageous (torpedoed by U-boat, September 1939)
HMS Glorious (gunfire from Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, June 1940)
HMS Ark Royal (U-boat, November 1941)
HMS Hermes (Japanese aircraft, April 1942)


From the video, at the 00:15 mark, there is the first of several Douglas TBD torpedo bombers shown in really good condition (all things considered). There are no surviving examples of this aircraft, except as un-recovered wrecks. According to Wiki, there are 7 of them on/near the Lexington wreck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator

I know the Navy has a policy of not disturbing wrecks like this (they are considered war graves), but I would hope they could make an exception to the policy. These planes, in all likelihood, do not contain any human remains (some even have their wings still folded, as they sunk with the ship after damage control measures failed and they decided to scuttle her). The ones in the video are in remarkable shape for being in the ocean for 76 years, and I would love to be able to see at least one of them in a museum somewhere. If they are left alone, they will all eventually disintegrate to nothing and be lost for all time. . .

Four of my uncles were is the Pacific during WWII. My Uncle Fred was on the Lexington when it went down. He later served as one of Halsey’s stewards. He passed when I was young but I remeber him telling my dad that that SOB Halsey was always stealing his cigeretts. They all saw their fill of action, proud of them all.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by 4x5:
Wow!!! I can't believe the condition of the airplanes! And to see the flags still painted on the fuselage. Amazing!

Wow. Decay is slow in the dark, cold depths of 10,000 feet.

Fascinating find.

I think we can fix that.......

The Felix the Cat logo....VF-3, right? Should be easy to figure out whose plane that is. 3 kills and a probable/shared(I assume that is the one flag without rays on it).

Amazingly well preserved.

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Originally posted by Graniteguy:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by 4x5:
Wow!!! I can't believe the condition of the airplanes! And to see the flags still painted on the fuselage. Amazing!

Wow. Decay is slow in the dark, cold depths of 10,000 feet.

Fascinating find.

I think we can fix that.......

Fighting Three. F4F-3's nonfolding wings. Four fifty Cals. The missing piece behind the Cockpit housed the dinghy. Pilots didn't care for the Dash 4's as they were about 800 lbs heavier then the Dash 3 and only 250 rounds per gun. About 13 seconds firing time. The Dash 3, 3A and later FM1 and 2 had four guns and around 450 rounds per gun. Apparently the Dash 4 was given 6 guns due to a British requirement. So much hell was raised by Guys Like Butch O'Hare, John Thatch and James Flatley, BUAIR issued a directive to Eastern Aircraft to go back to a 4 gun configuration for the FM-1 and FM-2. Eastern Aircraft began building Wildcats after Grumman to concentrate solely on the F6F Hellcat.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenInWV:
The Felix the Cat logo....VF-3, right? Should be easy to figure out whose plane that is. 3 kills and a probable/shared(I assume that is the one flag without rays on it).

According to Wikipedia (my link above when I was discussing the TBDs):

quote:

Near the wreck were the remains of seven Devastators, as well as the F4F-3 Wildcat of Albert O. Vorse Jr., complete with victory markings.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

...
From the video, at the 00:15 mark, there is the first of several Douglas TBD torpedo bombers shown in really good condition (all things considered). There are no surviving examples of this aircraft, except as un-recovered wrecks. According to Wiki, there are 7 of them on/near the Lexington wreck.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator

I know the Navy has a policy of not disturbing wrecks like this (they are considered war graves), but I would hope they could make an exception to the policy...

When I read about the Devastator, I think about the courage of the men of Torpedo 8 who died during the Battle of Midway.

https://www.thisdayinaviation....4-june-1942-torpedo/

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

When I read about the Devastator, I think about the courage of the men of Torpedo 8 who died during the Battle of Midway.

https://www.thisdayinaviation....4-june-1942-torpedo/

Which is EXACTLY why, IMO, they should recover some of them.

For those that don't know, Torpedo 8 was launched from the Hornet (same carrier that launched the Doolittle Raid the previous April), one of 3 carriers sent to intercept the Japanese attempt to invade and occupy Midway atoll. The US was still really green at combat, and even though we launched a large strike against the 4 Japanese carriers threatening Midway, our inexperience led the fighters, torpedo planes, and dive bombers to get lost and arrive over the Japanese fleet more or less at random (they all launched at different times; torpedo and dive bomber planes going first, as they had the longest range; the fighters last, and they were all supposed to rendezvous on their way to the strike area). It was SUPPOSED to be a coordinated attack; dive bombers plunging from above, torpedo bombers coming in at wave-top height, all with fighter cover. This, in theory, would have swamped the defenses allowing the US to hem in and strike the carriers (they could not effectively maneuver to avoid both dive- and torpedo-bomber attacks at the same time). As it unfolded, all three groups arrived over the Japanese fleet at different times (not even sure the US fighters ever found the fleet). The Douglas TBD Devastators (which were hopelessly obsolete at the time) went in alone without fighter cover. This was devastating for the US, especially Torpedo 8, as they were sitting ducks. AA fire and enemy fighters shot down every single plane from Torpedo 8, and only one person survived to be rescued later (Ensign George Gay, from Toledo).

However, these losses were not in vain. As the Japanese fighters pursued the remaining US torpedo planes (now harmless without their torpedoes), the US dive bombers happened upon the fleet (by 'luck' or 'divine providence;' take your pick). They were already in their dives before the Japanese even knew they were there. They could attack without being harassed by enemy fighters or concentrated AA fire (due to Torpedo 8's sacrifice), and in a few minutes, 3 of the Japanese carriers were flaming wrecks. Thus, Torpedo 8 helped the US win an INCREDIBLE strategic victory, and changed the balance of forces in the Pacific for the rest of the war. Japan never recovered from the loss of the 4 carriers we sunk at Midway (a second strike got the last carrier), or (especially) the loss of so many of their experienced air crews.

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Ok, did not know that. I rescind the 'hero' part, but I do admire him for recovering this lost history.

I never thought we would ever see the Indianapolis ever again.

thanks for humoring me.

Those flags would be for bombing (torpedo) missions, not air-to-air kills, I think.

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Originally posted by jhe888:
Those flags would be for bombing (torpedo) missions, not air-to-air kills, I think.

Respectfully, but no those are air-to-air. The F4F could not carry a torpedo and was used as a fighter solely at this point. Butch O’Hare exploits during this Coral Sea combat were legendary and he got the MOH. Great story - not his exact plane but same type and time. Lots of pics.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Those flags would be for bombing (torpedo) missions, not air-to-air kills, I think.

Air to air (I had to look it up).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_O._Vorse_Jr.

...Though his stint with VF-3 was a short one, he did see aerial combat with the unit and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for actions performed on 20 February 1942. On that day, several Japanese Kawanishi H6K flying boats had followed the aircraft carrier Lexington and vectored Japanese carrier bombers and Mitsubishi G4M land attack planes to her coordinates. Thach's 1st Division splashed some of these snoopers but ran through its fuel reserves and was forced to land back aboard Lexington. Lovejoy's 2nd Division (of which Vorse was a section leader) went up as relief, but had yet to meet the enemy by the time Gayler's 3rd Division—launched early on a hunch—went skyward. What transpired next would give the Navy its first ace of World War II as well as its first Medal of Honor recipient for the war.

The first group of the Imperial Japanese Navy's 4th kokutai showed up on the scene and was rapidly intercepted by Lexington's CAP. The men of VF-3's 3rd Division were the first to intercept this initial wave of bombers, and each section of Gayler's division was credited at least one bomber downed. Meanwhile, as 2nd Division was en route to landing, they were re-routed for intercept to assist 3rd Division. They arrived just in time to harry the disorganized bombers. Vorse and four other pilots in 2nd Division finished the Japanese attack, earning one credit each before they moved on to the attack planes that were retreating. Refueled and ready to enter the arena once more, Thach's 1st Division—sans a reserve crew of Butch O'Hare and Duff Dufilho—took to the skies just as a gas-depleted 2nd Division was finally landing aboard Lexington. The 1st Division worked over the land planes and even had an assist by a Lexington Douglas SBD Dauntless from VS-2, which finished off the Japanese land planes and forced the last air-worthy bomber to retreat....

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Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Near the wreck were the remains of seven Devastators, as well as the F4F-3 Wildcat of Albert O. Vorse Jr., complete with victory markings.

I wonder why they think that wildcat is Vorse's. He wasn't on the Lexington when it sunk.

From the same wiki article:

quote:

Vorse was among those sent over to Lexington and would remain with VF-2 until 16 June 1942, mere weeks before its disestablishment.

That aircraft would have long been reassigned and repainted for the current pilot, would it not?

Here is a better pic of that wildcat

quote:

Originally posted by Shaql:

That aircraft would have long been reassigned and repainted for the current pilot, would it not?

Maybe, maybe not. One may think so, unless they left the kill markings on the aircraft just to show that aircraft had shot down 4 enemy planes (it was very early in the war, so the crew/maintenance people may have been hesitant to erase that particular plane's history. . . ). Also, it wasn't always possible for each pilot to have his 'own' airplane. The movies all make it seem that way, but sometimes they had more pilots than planes. Or, Pilot A had to fly a mission that day and his 'normal' aircraft was undergoing maintenance, so he had to take another one. Mission took priority over 'ownership' of any particular plane.

Some commanders forbade painting 'kill markings' on planes; some encouraged it. The practice was not universal.


Or, maybe they painted over the kill markings after Vorse left and the new paint deteriorated over the decades? (The Bismarck wreck has the original giant swastikas that were painted on the deck visible now, even though they were painted over right before the battle with the HMS Hood and Prince of Wales, so it's possible).

It looks like that aircaft has at least one bombing mission as well.

quote:

Originally posted by FlyingScot:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Those flags would be for bombing (torpedo) missions, not air-to-air kills, I think.

Respectfully, but no those are air-to-air. The F4F could not carry a torpedo and was used as a fighter solely at this point. Butch O’Hare exploits during this Coral Sea combat were legendary and he got the MOH. Great story - not his exact plane but same type and time. Lots of pics.

I misread, and thought someone said it was a Devastator. But in looking at it, I think you are right.

I think these planes are not in good enough condition to attempt recovery. I suspect they would fall apart when lifted or on the way to the surface.

quote:

Originally posted by pbslinger:
I think these planes are not in good enough condition to attempt recovery. I suspect they would fall apart when lifted or on the way to the surface.

It's amazing what they can restore. There is an outfit in Colorado, Westpac Restorations, that restores aircraft. They literally dig planes out of the jungle where they've been rotting for 7 decades, and when they are done, they are in better condition than when they rolled off the assembly line.

The Navy recovered a bunch of planes out of one of the Great Lakes (Superior?) where they crashed during flight training. They restored some to museum condition, and left some others in the condition in which they were found (on a life-sized diorama of sand, rocks, and snagged fishing nets.

I would bet good money that they could restore these planes to flight if they really wanted to.