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Too clever by half |
My daughter, a senior in high school, is a very good student, and has never been in trouble of any type, in school or out. Yesterday she admitted to plagiarizing lines in a poem for an English assignment. She had submitted the assignment online at the midnight deadline the night before, and felt badly about what she had done. After class yesterday she approached the teacher asking to speak with her. The teacher asked her if she had something to tell her, my daughter said yes, and came clean. Later that afternoon she appeared before the honor court which both embarrassed and put the fear of God into her. Because of her good record in school academically, as a leader with a record of service, because she came to the teacher and voluntarily admitted what she did, and because of her contrition she was given an unofficial reprimand and 3 cleanup days. Nothing official in her record. She got off lightly IMO. The rep from the honor committee told us they felt like she made a very poor choice when she found herself in a tight situation. Bottom line is she wasn't prepared for an assignment and attempted a shortcut when faced with a deadline. Her grades have always been very good, she is nine for nine on college acceptances so far, but I feel like she has become distracted in the last year by her new part time job, her first real boyfriend, her blossoming social life, and the freedom of having a car at the ready. My wife and I have spoken about this general situation before this incident, but we are of different minds. My spouse feels she is 18, heading off to college shortly, and has earned the privilege. I feel like she's still in high school and allowing her to go out on school nights for social reasons regularly is a mistake. I feel like my wife is trying to be a friend when she should be a parent. We both agree that the job, the boyfriend, the social life, etc. likely got in the way of completing the assignment on her own, and resulted in the plagarizing. I feel like we should make her understand how serious this was. She's a good kid, but IMO there need to be significant consequences. My wife believes she should be grounded for a week, assuming we agree on what that actually looks like. I feel like that's far too lenient, I was thinking a month, but maybe, given the mitigating circumstances, I'm being harsh. I came home today to find my wife allowed my daughter to go out to a basketball game this evening. Last basketball game of the year, already made arrangements, blah, blah, blah...I am not happy about that. Opinions? "We have a system that increasingly taxes work, and increasingly subsidizes non-work" - Milton Friedman | ||
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I think you might be too harsh. I agree with a punishment but I think she showed a lot of character approaching her teacher. Tough call. Is there any middle ground between you and your wife? I would want to be tough but would be worried how she would take it before heading off to college. But only you know your relationship. Good luck. (Edited to add) It sounds like you have done a great job so far and will find a good answer. "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men have insurance." JALLEN | |||
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"A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." I try to instill the above into my kids. I figure it can only serve them well in the future. They are 11 and 7, but i figure you have to start sometime. I would fully support additional reasonable punishment. | |||
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Ammoholic |
My opinion is she's not been capable of juggling boyfriend, schoolwork, social life, and job all at the same time. One or more need to be cut back in order to dedicate time to school. Then the realist in me says I jerked off second half of senior year (still honor roll), after acceptance. It's natural, she's worked hard to get where she is AND she immediately came clean. Week grounded and maybe some other additional chores she hates would be fair. She's already also getting punished at school. Jesse Sic Semper Tyrannis | |||
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It seems like ages bearing herself up pretty badly about it already so why pile on. I think a week of grounding is fair as a warning and the understanding that things need to improve quickly or there will be more than a slap on the wrist. Better yet, ask her what her punishment should be. It'll probably be more severe than you'd expect. | |||
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Funny Man |
One transgression, which she admitted on her own and faced the music, at the age of 18. I would be inclined to sit and talk with her about the incident, the consequences she received, the potential consequences she luckily avoided, what led up to it, etc.....then let it go. You have to parent adults differently than kids and make no mistake, she is an adult. As for the rest, it's sounds like she is learning to handle college life's many conflicting priorities while under your roof which is a good thing. Those things won't go away when she is out from under your supervision. Quashing them now makes no sense as she will be on her own at college in 8 months dealing with all of those things on her own. ______________________________ “I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.” ― John Wayne | |||
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A Grateful American |
If she has been stellar and this is her first time screwing up, and you hit her too hard for something like this, you may find what Newton's third law looks like, up close. The "one week" is more correct for such a thing. If she was making a habit of screwing up, then a month might fit. She showed contrition, stepped up before being confronted and shows remorse. That is big and "adult" of her. I would let that be the starting point and see where it goes. (yeah, I would even forego the one week). You and the wife get on the same page, even if you do not agree and take daughter out to nice restaurant, and focus on the positive what she addressed and see if you all can discuss the what it means, the future and such without any lectures or admonishments. From your description, she should have that benefit of the doubt. And in all honestly, where were you and what had you done in your life at that same point in time? Same question for your wife. Each of you should ask the question of yourself in private, in front of the mirror and stare at that person for at least 2 full minutes while contemplating. "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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You and your wife need to get on the same page. Go from there. It is only going to get worse when she goes to college if you guys do not agree. | |||
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Irksome Whirling Dervish |
She's starting to balance and deal with the effects of growing up and spreading herself too thin and thinking it will be fine. The fact that she came clean (as I understand the OP) is a mitigating factor and she's otherwise a good student who took a shortcut that she readily admits was wrong. Only a good heart and person of character reports themselves so there must be an allowance for that, of some sort. She admits she did wrong and the school imposed their own punishment and they too recognized the same good student making a mistake. My guess is that in the totality of possible punishments, the school went light and so should the parents. Since she's 18, social enagements are a very big thing to her. She can have plenty of time to think about things if she's grounded at home for a week after school. No social media, no phone and only a reasonable window to get home after school. Boredom can solve a lot. She doesn't need to bust big rocks into little ones over this. | |||
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i agree with the above -- a modest punishment is in order. but the fact that she is otherwise a 'good kid' mitigates it somewhat i think two or three weeks would be acceptable. also -- give her some reading material on the importance of honesty / integrity. role play some scenarios which show how - in the real world - integrity matters but just between you and me -- the counterpoint is in the real world adults lie all the time. and it's not always wrong. cops are ALLOWED to lie to obtain a confession. military leaders will employ ruses / lies to trick an enemy. coaches lie to recruits saying they love their school when they are planning on leaving... etc etc Machiavelli is a thing. but obviously at her age that's not what is the issue. the punishment should fit the crime and make her highly reluctant to ever do that again. ------------------------------------- Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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Member |
Reward behavior that you want repeated. Ignore that which you want to cease. "Your mom and I are amazed at your honorable approach to how you handled the assignment. We know you were under a lot of pressure, with all you have going on, and are so happy you made a good choice to share the matter with the school. Tell me how you reached the decision to discuss it with the teacher. That must have been hard!" Allow her to recount how she reached her own conclusion. Affirm this process and the result. "I tell you what, that makes a lot of sense. You sure know what is important. Honor is about all we have that is completely ours. If we give it away, it is gone for good." Allow her to agree. "You know what...we can see that you've made a lot of progress this year. Nine college acceptances! So proud! Why don't we take a week off from social events to allow you some time to focus on the important schoolwork? Maybe a week will give you a chance to recalibrate how much time it takes to get it all done. Then, we can go for one social per week for the next three weeks." Love. Love always. ------- Trying to simplify my life... | |||
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Member |
Make sure she understands that if the colleges became aware of her plagiarism, those acceptances have a very significant chance of being revoked. I had a good friend who got plagiarizing a paper our freshman year and got kicked out of the college. Like your daughter, he found himself up against a deadline and panicked. He would have been better off failing the course. He had good grades otherwise, no discipline issues but violating the honor code was one and done. All the years of hard work and sacrifice to get into an Ivy pissed away by one bad decision. "You know, Scotland has its own martial arts. Yeah, it's called Fuck You. It's mostly just head butting and then kicking people when they're on the ground." - Charlie MacKenzie (Mike Myers in "So I Married an Axe Murderer") | |||
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| Be not wise in thine own eyes  |
She had an indiscretion and then corrected her error and was punished. From what you have written I don’t see any evidence of reoccurring indiscretions. Father to Father advice: Additional punishment after having taken action to address the issue would not likely result in the outcome you would desire. Seems you have raised a girl of good character. Move on with life and help her succeed in life. Nothing official in her record, is a good thing. “We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,” Pres. Select, Joe Biden “Let’s go, Brandon” Kelli Stavast, 2 Oct. 2021 | |||
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| If you see me running try to keep up  |
I’m with you and if more parents were a little stricter it would pay dividends for all of society. If she doesn’t learn now how will she learn with less oversight while at college? Sure, you don’t want to be overly harsh but what you stated isn’t too harsh. I’ve spoken to adults during my volunteering that state they wish their parents would have disciplined them more to keep them out of the situations we are helping them get through. There are consequences for our actions and public schools are not properly preparing kids for the real world. The ones around me baby them and they get to college expecting the same. My daughter is a college professor and regularly catches plagiarism. They have software that will detect it but I doubt high schools use that. | |||
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Member |
All of the previous comments make sense to me. Of all the problems you can have with kids, this is not the worst one I've ever heard. Not by any means. The young lady seems to be on the right track. The mortification of being found out, and having to confess and make amends, it quite a punishment in itself. I don't think you need to add any severe or lengthy punishments. Of course, you don't want to convey this is okay, or slough it off. But the child should be able to get back in your good graces quickly. Keeping reins on the social life is actually a different issue. It is often better to say no to requests to stay out late, go to parties, etc., although you have to let them have a little room. When she gets to college, she will have essentially unlimited freedom - so both you and she have to get used to the idea. But, remember always, nothing good happens with young people after 10 o'clock at night. (My working theory, which my kids confirmed years later, was that teenagers WANT PARENTS TO SAY NO from time to time -- it takes pressure off them to run with the crowd, and tells them you really care for them. Even if they argue with you about being told no at the time). Overall, I think you are blessed with a good kid there. Or maybe you can take a little credit for having done a good job raising her. | |||
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| SIGforum Official Eye Doc  |
I’m reminded of what my parents told me- “don’t feel...THINK!” I think your wife is wrong. I think you are right, but a little too harsh-I would NOT have let her go to the game tonight. I think you both, as parents, need to keep “feelings” out of this discipline and you both need to be “thinking” parents. (But, see what I say in 9 years when my boy is 16!  ) | |||
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Better Than I Deserve! |
She came clean and answered at school. I would have a discussion with her to reinforce what she has already learned and lay some ground rules moving forward. Further "punishment" would help in this situation in my opinion. She sounds like a good kid that had a lapse in judgement and realized it herself and learned a lesson at school. I raised two great kids and that is how I would have handled it. ____________________________ NRA Benefactor Life Member GOA Life Member Arizona Citizens Defense League Life Member | |||
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Alea iacta est |
Okay, I don’t have kids, but I was raised in a very strict, pacifistic family. ***Edited to add that it didn’t matter the age, a BMX bike was the most important thing in my life until I met my wife when I was 29. Had I done that, the consequences would have been fucked. My parents would have considered plagiarism no different than lying. To my parents, you can do the worst crime, but to lie about it, makes it tenfold worse. The basketball game would have definitely been out, especially so, as it was planned in advance. I didn’t have a car, but all the same, I would have lost my bike for the rest of the school year. I would have been grounded for at least a month. Here’s the catch, I would have a shit punishment doled out to me. Suffer through it, or earn things back. This would have been things like splitting a chord of firewood, takes 5 days off the bike loss. 10 points of extra credit was worth a day. I could choose to apply those days toward the bike or the groundation. I didn’t give a shit about being grounded. I had an X-games bike track in the back yard. Getting the bike back stat was first priority. As I got older, it was harder to attain, and they used it against me. I had a friend drop off a bike for me to ride. Pops came home, confiscated the friends bike, told the friends parents, and friend was now grounded, and all the credit to earn my bike back was lost, as well as additional time added to get it back. But what was cool, was that with a shitload of hard work, I was able to earn back a bike that was three months out, in a week or two. I just had to buckle down, do a shitload if homework/extra credit, and be a sweatshop worker at my parents home. So if you ask me, it would be car is gone for the school year. Grounded for two months. And then an attainable list to turn the groundation into two weeks, and the loss of the car into a six weeks, if pretty much the child’s life becomes dedicated to school and chores. Oh, we didn’t have social media, but I would lose the Original Nintendo and the 13” black and white TV. So cut off the phone and internet. Those should go on the same plan as the car. Has to be earned back. That’s my two cents. I think my parents did a petty damn good job. I mean, I begged for an ass whipping as opposed to whet they did. Good luck brother. The “lol” thread | |||
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Facts are stubborn things |
More punishment could take the form of more service instead of actual punishment. Have a conversation with her about the incident. Ask her what she thought the penalty would have been if she had not confessed and instead been found out. Ask her how she feels about the actual penalty she received and if it was fair or too lenient. Ask her what additional impact this event should have had. Suggest she spend a few more extra hours serving others. I would recommend volunteer tutoring of struggling English students. Could be middle school aged or even freshman English students. I am sure there are some kids that could use her help... Do, Or do not. There is no try. | |||
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Member |
She graduates and goes to college in the fall. She knows right from wrong. She is a good kid. She has the moral fiber to do the right thing. Time to treat her as an adult. You raised her right. | |||
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