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Picture of wrightd
posted
I don't know if this is a "thing" in gun consumerism or not, but after spending a couple hours in a large, well stocked gun store with lots medium, upper quality, and fairly expensive production long guns, I felt that the "just because you can doesn't mean you should" idea of making good products is being ignored in a big way by more than a few gun manufacturers. In shouldering many of the "cheap" polymer stocked bolt guns from the big players for example, I was not impressed. But it wasn't becasue I don't appreciate the value of paying less money to hit a target or take a game animal, they will all do that, and not denying the overall nice results of modern CNC manufacturing and newer methods of effective bedding and headspacing for less cost, but when I pick up these guns and put them to my shoulder I just wasn't impressed. Sadly I didn't find this problem unique to the modern polymer long guns. I picked up a very expensive Christiansen Arms rifle with a carbon whatever wrapped barrel in the $3-4k price range iirc, and when I shouldered it I couldn't put it down fast enough. With all the fancy press in the gun rags about how high tech and accrurate these types of guns are, it felt like an 8 foot 4x4 fence post from Home Depot. WHY would a super player manufaturer like that just put out a space rifle that feels like a piece of shit? I can't believe you can't put in a little more imagination and design to make a four thousand dollar gun that doesn't feel and mount like garbage. I just don't see how buyers can put down real money for something that may be technically superior in particular respects, but feels like a piece of shit when you pick it up. I don't get it. So I came out thinking many gun manufacturers are simply building them and putting them out to see how many will sell, regardless of the inherent merits, or lack thereof, of the gun itself. Now in the classic guns, those that have been around forever, like the Marlin lever guns for example, ALL of the brand new Marlin lever guns in that store, including the pistol caliber rifles, 30-30s, 45-70's both long and short barrelled, ALL of their cheap buckhorn rear sights leaned heavily to the left-hand side, literally. Besides the fact that they were thin, weak, and cheap as shit, the damn things were all cocked, every single one, listing heavily left. I don't know about everyone else, but looking down a barrel with the sights leaning badly left, that's a deal breaker for me (other things being equal of course, like installing better aftermarket sights etc). Another example, in a LOT of better quality waterfowling and target semi auto shotguns, including some guns from the Italians, the full length barrel ribs were bent lengthwise. I kid you not. How can you spend 1k to 2k for a premium waterfowler or sporting shotty and the rib is not glued on straight ? I mean what the hell is it for a production floor engineer to look down the goddammed barrel and figure out he should turn a knob or kick some ass to make the rib follow the same direction as the barrel. Sadly this was also the case with some production Beretta O/Us AND $1.5 to $2k Benelli shottys.

I don't know if I am dissappointed or just annoyed, but I will NEVER buy a modern long gun sight unseen, even if I've already handled a like specimen previously. For all I know the sights will be cocked, the ribs will be bent, or the damn scope holes won't parallel the bore in multiple axes (I read about that one).

If I were to make a guess, I'm thinking young engineers and skilled manufactuing jobs are being done by mellenials. Yes I said it. I bet the damn millenials are looking at their cell phones while the guns are rolling past with all these defects. And the gun design and marketing
mellenials are saying, "hey, let's sell this and see what happens ! I don't have any idea about
the merits of the gun itself because I'm too busy being a stupid mellenial to think of something as common sense as that". I don't know if this is caused by the same disease that causes auto designers to put oil filters in places that can't be reached w/out unbolting engine mounts and stupid shit like that, but this problem with the guns I saw today feels like it runs deeper than retarded GM beureaucracy.

So am I just getting old or do we have a problem here ? BTW I was only kidding about the mellenials. Sort of. Maybe not. I don't see how some gun manufacturers can survive putting out shit like this. Oh BTW, there was a german double in the case for $45,000 dollars, but I didn't shoulder that rifle because I figured the rib was already straight. Oh wait...

What do you guys think ? Should I pray for Para's comet, again already ? Can we steer that sucker to hit the stupid manufacturers ?

P.S. I was going to put this in the Pitch Your Bitch sub-forum but I was too upset.




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Posts: 9008 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
eh-TEE-oh-clez
Picture of Aeteocles
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Hi,

Would you mind breaking up your rant into a few more paragraphs? It's awfully difficult to read.
 
Posts: 13067 | Location: Orange County, California | Registered: May 19, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wow... Talk about a wall of text. I did my best so here we go.

A) it's mostly you getting old

B) it's 100% not millenials looking at their phones while defect guns roll by. Any company that would allow that wouldn't be around long.

C) blame Wal-Mart more than anyone. Wal-Mart has shown just how much quality People will sacrifice for price. And just because a gun still costs over 1000 doesn't mean it hasn't been through a 'lean' process where they try to accomplish the 'goal' as cheaply as possible. Look at Kimber as a great example of this.

D) finally, blame capitalism and the quest for profit if you really must. Their job as companies is to build a product as cost effectively as possible and sell it for the most amount of money the market will bear.
 
Posts: 3468 | Registered: January 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
I can't believe you can't put in a little more imagination and design to make a four thousand dollar gun that doesn't feel and mount like garbage.


Like the others, I had a difficult time following all that, especially with the redundancies, but I did get that part and I’m curious what you mean. You pick up and mount a gun and you don’t like it, that I understood, but what is the problem? What don’t you like, and more to the point, what and how should they be improved?

Long ago Jeff Cooper complained about shouldering rifles with “saw handle grips” like the AK and of course the whole AR family of guns, and I agree with him to this day despite having fully accustomed myself to the design. But what’s wrong with shotguns and rifles that still have traditional stocks with what used to be called “pistol” (i.e., not straight) grips?




6.4/93.6
___________
“We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.”
— George H. W. Bush
 
Posts: 47860 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Would you mind breaking up your rant into a few more paragraphs? It's awfully difficult to read.

yep

quote:
Originally posted by Scurvy:
it's mostly you getting old

yep

quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
I was going to put this in the Pitch Your Bitch sub-forum but I was too upset.

Oh you poor little triggered thing. Call a frickin' wahbulance.
 
Posts: 8072 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Don't Panic
Picture of joel9507
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quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
So am I just getting old or do we have a problem here ?

Could be a bit of both? Smile
quote:
looking down a barrel with the sights leaning badly left
...
waterfowling and target semi auto shotguns, including some guns from the Italians, the full length barrel ribs were bent lengthwise.
...
when I pick up these guns and put them to my shoulder I just wasn't impressed.
...
I will NEVER buy a modern long gun sight unseen, even if I've already handled a like specimen previously.

It sounds like you are very particular on how a gun should look and feel, and buying only guns you've personally inspected seems rational.
quote:
I was only kidding about the millennials. Sort of.

I'm sure you know that quality control and design issues have been around long before 'millennials.'
 
Posts: 15217 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: October 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wrightd
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All true aside, I'll admit it. BUT, in some previous generation of guns, I didn't see these problems consistently for each gun on the rack down the line. For example, I don't remember seeing cocked buckhorn sight assemblies for ALL the marlin lever guns in a rack. Cheap yes. ALL coked to one side, no. So I think there may be more to the story today than perhaps in more previous generations of modern manufacturing methods and market conditions. Could there be a level of mass stupidity that didn't exist before ? It has happened to Democrats, so are you saying it couldn't also happen in manufacturing ? I mean really. All the ribs one one gun after another crooked and/or canted ? Really ? Comon now ! Perhaps there's a level of incompetence that goes beyond the drive for profit here. I ran a small business for a brief time and made good profit, but I didn't compromise common sense and honesty. If I couldn't do THAT profitably, I wouldn't have done it at all. So what has changed ? Is it ALL me ? Some of it yes, but I doubt all of this is just crumudgendom.

Apologies for the huge paragraph. Sometimes I forego paragraphs to make my rants appear "shorter" since I tend to being long winded. Obviously not.




Lover of the US Constitution
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Posts: 9008 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
All true aside, I'll admit it. BUT, in some previous generation of guns, I didn't see these problems consistently for each gun on the rack down the line. For example, I don't remember seeing cocked buckhorn sight assemblies for ALL the marlin lever guns in a rack. Cheap yes. ALL coked to one side, no. So I think there may be more to the story today than perhaps in more previous generations of modern manufacturing methods and market conditions. Could there be a level of mass stupidity that didn't exist before ? It has happened to Democrats, so are you saying it couldn't also happen in manufacturing ? I mean really. All the ribs one one gun after another crooked and/or canted ? Really ? Comon now ! Perhaps there's a level of incompetence that goes beyond the drive for profit here. I ran a small business for a brief time and made good profit, but I didn't compromise common sense and honesty. If I couldn't do THAT profitably, I wouldn't have done it at all. So what has changed ? Is it ALL me ? Some of it yes, but I doubt all of this is just crumudgendom.

Apologies for the huge paragraph. Sometimes I forego paragraphs to make my rants appear "shorter" since I tend to being long winded. Obviously not.


Maybe you don't keep with the news and leave of the gun world these days?

Marlin's QC has gone down hill since they got bought out. It's a very well known fact.

They count on the buying public to pay more attention to the price tag and not the quality... And they are consistently proven right.

I'm not nearly as picky as you but even I am consistently amazed at how much people only care about a price tag. People willing to pick up the cheapest bottom of the barrel pistols to save and hundred or two hundred dollars. They are purchasing them for self defense and they are willing to sacrifice their safety for a few bucks... You think the general gun buying public cares about canted sights and ribs?
 
Posts: 3468 | Registered: January 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Simply put the days of expensive blued metal and walnut stocked hunting rifles is gone. While they are cosmetically appealing, those features don't really add anything when it comes to accuracy, reliability, or durability. A Savage Axis or Ruger American with its cheap looking plastic stock and matte metal finish is very accurate and will last a lifetime. The number of hunters is dwindling and even those left might only go out once or twice a year. A $300 rifle that is accurate and weather resistant does everything they need. It's a tool used a few time a year not a piece of art to admire.
 
Posts: 838 | Registered: September 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There has been a bad batch of Beretta shotguns out there with bent/crooked ribs, I've seen them. As far as the high dollar guns like Christiansen and Cooper, they look pretty good to me. You can order any option you want, at least Coopers. "Feels like shit" isn't much of a criticism. To long, too short, wrong length of pull, poorly finished, crooked rib are all valid criticisms. And I don't know why you're so worked up, you no like, you o buy.
 
Posts: 17297 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I stopped reading half-way through that first paragraph....painful.

The gun industry as it pertains to variety and sophistication of inventory, is driven by distributors. Like the electronics industry and bicycle industry, the gun industry has many distributors that are out there, they take-on all the inventory, sales, lines of credit and all dealer interactions. There's good distributors and A LOT of mediocre distributors. Gun makers that are solely focused on a specific brand image and want to control who's carrying their product (surplus store, garage operations, etc) will avoid distributors. The rest just sell their inventory to whomever pays the bills.

As to poor machining....look at the overall drop in manufacturing in the US. A nice combination of derision towards labor fields by the general media, and factories (what's left) filled with cantankerous, old souls who have zero interest in training up an apprentice as they view them as 'their younger/cheaper replacement'. Why would a twenty-something, want to deal with somebody that complains insistently, laments about the good old days and is resistant to any level of modernity. There's a handful of well made firearms out there, just gotta get in-line.
 
Posts: 15149 | Location: Wine Country | Registered: September 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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Honestly, if you want to make good rifles, these days, it seems easier to just make actions/let the buyer pick from a catalog of stocks/barrels/action options.

With CNC machining now being standard, I'm not sure keeping much inventory really makes sense.
 
Posts: 6000 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Low Country, SC. | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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It seems that QC isn't Quality at some gun makers and those that have good reputations.

Seen a couple of examples recently as last week, CZ P-10F - trigger was too long and ground against the inside of the trigger guard. On the pull back, you could feel it, then we verified it from the side, clearly hitting the frame on the way back. Pulled another out of the case and it was fine.

I forget which model, but the front sight was bent, not crooked, or slightly off but bent so much you could see it looking down at it.

Been a few others, and the reports of the problems with Colts new Python.

You really do have to inspect, test and check everything...
 
Posts: 24547 | Location: Gunshine State | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wrightd
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by Aeteocles:
Would you mind breaking up your rant into a few more paragraphs? It's awfully difficult to read.

yep

quote:
Originally posted by Scurvy:
it's mostly you getting old

yep

quote:
Originally posted by wrightd:
I was going to put this in the Pitch Your Bitch sub-forum but I was too upset.

Oh you poor little triggered thing. Call a frickin' wahbulance.

That was a joke, not my wahbulance. A little self deprecation to balance out my obvious use of hyperbole to make the point. If I just said it plainly my guess is you would have agreed, as I don't think you would be impressed either by a bunch of remlins all lined up with crooked sights, as I see you are a serious shooter.




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Posts: 9008 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wrightd
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quote:
Originally posted by corsair:
I stopped reading half-way through that first paragraph....painful.

The gun industry as it pertains to variety and sophistication of inventory, is driven by distributors. Like the electronics industry and bicycle industry, the gun industry has many distributors that are out there, they take-on all the inventory, sales, lines of credit and all dealer interactions. There's good distributors and A LOT of mediocre distributors. Gun makers that are solely focused on a specific brand image and want to control who's carrying their product (surplus store, garage operations, etc) will avoid distributors. The rest just sell their inventory to whomever pays the bills.

As to poor machining....look at the overall drop in manufacturing in the US. A nice combination of derision towards labor fields by the general media, and factories (what's left) filled with cantankerous, old souls who have zero interest in training up an apprentice as they view them as 'their younger/cheaper replacement'. Why would a twenty-something, want to deal with somebody that complains insistently, laments about the good old days and is resistant to any level of modernity. There's a handful of well made firearms out there, just gotta get in-line.

That's very educational, make more sense to me now, as manufacturing has been in some trouble for quite a long time in the US. I've seen the old man problem at other companies I've worked in, sometimes you can't blame them sometimes you can. I do my best not to be that old guy myself sometimes, though I may occasionally unleash on some software vendors who license their products with us, when they use programmers to develop the most critical parts or their software but aren't really up for the job. Sort of like crooked sights. Very basic but a required part of a working shooting iron. In spite of the marketing and distribution difficulties and pricing restrictions in the market, I still don't think it's a very good excuse, notwiththing the fact that it's probably not avoidable depending on the particular circumstances of any given maker. Thanks for the education on that.




Lover of the US Constitution
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Posts: 9008 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
7.62mm Crusader
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quote:
Originally posted by corsair:
I stopped reading half-way through that first paragraph....painful.

The gun industry as it pertains to variety and sophistication of inventory, is driven by distributors. Like the electronics industry and bicycle industry, the gun industry has many distributors that are out there, they take-on all the inventory, sales, lines of credit and all dealer interactions. There's good distributors and A LOT of mediocre distributors. Gun makers that are solely focused on a specific brand image and want to control who's carrying their product (surplus store, garage operations, etc) will avoid distributors. The rest just sell their inventory to whomever pays the bills.

As to poor machining....look at the overall drop in manufacturing in the US. A nice combination of derision towards labor fields by the general media, and factories (what's left) filled with cantankerous, old souls who have zero interest in training up an apprentice as they view them as 'their younger/cheaper replacement'. Why would a twenty-something, want to deal with somebody that complains insistently, laments about the good old days and is resistant to any level of modernity. There's a handful of well made firearms out there, just gotta get in-line.
American manufacturers have not taken part in apprenticeships in decades. Oh, trades such as plumbing or electrical, maybe frame carpenters. Most States labor departments pitch apprenticeships but produce very few. Perhaps 1 time in my adult life I may have been able to apprentice in the field of heating and air. No, people are just cheap labor when needed now. The OP recognizes the changes in the civilian arms industry and he is right. Just 3 weeks back a Member here posted the point of the new p320 being a better pistol than Glock. Only point I wish to make of that statement is that Glock has been making its poly framed pistols for how long? What kind of a track record do they have in the industry of polymer framed pistols? Ive no doubt strayed away from well built rifles and scatter guns. The cheap piece of garbage fielded by Sig Sauer, for profit plastic and tin Johnny come lately auto pistol is the perfect example of modern gun making. When I again invest in any polymer framed side arms, brands other than Sig will be my choice. With the exception of Sig Pro.
 
Posts: 18000 | Location: The Bluegrass State! | Registered: December 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Only dead fish
go with the flow
Picture of pessimist
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I can relate to what you're saying, wrightd.

Consumers are primarily to blame in my opinion. They're ignorant, lazy, prefer form over function and generally lack an appreciation for something well made. Hand them something built like shit and they're thrilled as long as it looks cool or it's cheap.

I guess we should also assign some blame to the manufacturers who victimize these idiots.

A friend of mine recently bought a Ruger American rifle in 30-06. When we went to the range, he opened the bolt and from feet away all I saw was a patch of bright-silver, bare metal. I looked closer and there's a huge gouge in the raceway. How he doesn't see it or doesn't care is beyond me.
 
Posts: 1517 | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Pessimist, we may share a common ancestor, our guns probably do. Steel, wood, or polymer, all generations of good guns share common traits, like good people.




Lover of the US Constitution
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Posts: 9008 | Location: Nowhere the constitution is not honored | Registered: February 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've shot a few Christensen rifles, both bolt action and AR15. They are built built with quality components, are assembled well, and are quite accurate. The statement that you don't like the feel of the rifle you shouldered does not detract from the way Christensen Arms makes its firearms. It just means you don't like something about it. Christensen's light-weight guns are made light for carrying long distances. They use polymer stocks because wood can't do what polymer can -- high strength, low weight, low flex, resistance to moisture. Christensen uses heavier stocks on rifles not meant to carried long distances.

I have two wood-stocked bolt actions -- pre '64 Winchester in .270 and Kimber sporter .22lr. Both are nice looking guns. The Kimber is really accurate, the Winchester only sort-of. My precision bolt actions have composite McMillan and Grayboe stocks. I've shot a bunch of rifles with Manners stocks, too. These composite stock rifles -- coupled with finely machined actions and barrels -- feel really good and shoot with stunning accuracy.

The days of wood stocks in precision rifles are long gone, with exception of those carried no more than a few feet from the back of the SUV to the top of the bench rest.

My AR15s and AR10s have Magpul polymer stocks. They are finely tuned machines that shoot really well.

I cannot see my owning a Marlin. I don't consider them well made, even for the price. Currently, unchambered quality bolt action barrels retailing for $300 to $400, with chambering definitely increasing the cost. The price point for Marlin rifles (and many others, too), tells that corners had to be cut to sell firearms at such prices. CNC machine time is expensive, as are the hours required for quality gunsmiths.

Rant all you want about current rifles. It will fall on plugged & muffed ears of those who shoot modern rifles in competition. We don't shoot old rifles. We don't shoot Marlins. We don't shoot long guns with crooked sights. But we do invest in quality components, which are assembled by craftsmen. I can hardly wait to see what the next iterations of rifles include, regardless of the ages of those who touch it along the way.
 
Posts: 8072 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I expected this thread to be about laser weapons and futuristic blasters given that thread title.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The price of liberty and even of common humanity is eternal vigilance
 
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