quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The union can't stop this. They can only delay it. It's as simple as that.

Look at the efficiency. There is no way that the United States will not adopt this technology.

This goes back to what I said earlier. Why can't we hire just about anyone on the planet to unload boxes? What special skill do these longshoremen process that no others on the planet have? It's not like they need NBA/NFL level of skills; they don't need CEO level of business acumen; they don't need Einstein level of brains.

What is their special skill they possess that I couldn't learn in a short period? Or that a heavy equipment worker couldn't learn? I just don't understand where they derive the specialness from?

Besides that, why can the Chinese automate what seems like a menial task to me, but the US is incapable of doing it? We sent people to the moon; we invented stealth technology; and we have made the vast majority of medical advances on the planet. We are not some 3rd country, we can do this too.

Please someone tell me why. Why are these workers so special, and why can't we automate them out of existence and replace them with a kid that's good at video games?

You're kidding right....this isn't the 1920's where all you had to do is line-up, show your card, get a hook and assignment. The entire story of longshoreman and shipping is about protectionism & modernization. Longshoreman and stevedores used to be amongst the largest unions because of the amount of labor needed to unload a ship, all you needed was a strong body and you could have a job. Containerization upended, kicked-over the banquet table of labor's strength (membership) and dramatically shrank the necessary workers needed to unload a ship.

The work is at all odd hours and not the typical 9-5 with weekends off. Union 'rules' and culture runs deep and those who don't conform don't last long as physical violence and death weren't uncommon in prior eras.

quote:

You're kidding right

Absolutely not, I am 1,000% not kidding. I am certain that you accidentally quoted the wrong person?

Let me simplify what my point was, in case by some really.odd chance you were actually responding to my comment and misunderstood what I said.

I made two points:

1) These people are not special in anyway. They aren't smarter than me or anyone else. They have zero skills that you couldn't train a person of average to slightly above average intelligence to learn and perform. Crane operators and heavy equipment operators are a dime a dozen (slight exaggeration, but point still stands).

2) We are a great nation with nearly unlimited resources and some of the brightest minds on the planet. There is no reason we can't further automate our moving heavy things processes.

You said words, but your words did not address ANYTHING I said. So please answer me. What special abilities do they have and why can't we further automate?



PS, I work extremely long hours at odd times. That does not make me special.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

What special abilities do they have and why can't we further automate?

Two things here, do we want to fully automate the ports? We are so quick to automate, and computerize, until the Russian hackers get involved. Then everyone says we shouldn’t have automated so much… Maybe a mix of both, but if the automation goes down, (remember the Microsoft update a couple months ago that screwed a lot of people over for a day or two) we will need those skilled people to unload the ships.

Picking the containers with a crane, is not an easy skill to learn. I am an outstanding forklift operator. I would go as far as to say I’m a “Navy Seal, or Delta Force” on a forklift. I’m not exaggerating, I’m really a top operator. While the skill set is similar to operating a crane, it’s as much worlds apart. Could I learn to do it, absolutely. Would I be efficient like the Longshoreman? Not for years.

I look at it like this. When I first started driving a forklift in six months I had acquired 80% of the skill I have now. It took another 20 years to acquire that last 20%. That last 20% was only acquired through thousands of hours of repetition, and being put in awkward situations and figuring out the correct solution. That last 20% is a difference in nearly two fold the productivity of someone with that first 80%. Example, unloading a trailer, and staging it on the dock for receivers, then putting it all away in the racking in a warehouse. If it’s a task that would take me two hours, someone who operates at that 80% mark, would take them nearly four hours.

So to answer your question, yes, there is a somewhat special skill involved. Yes, we can train many people to do it, but it takes a lot of repetition to do it efficiently.

All said, I DO NOT agree that these dickbags should be striking for even higher pay. They make a very good wage and should accept the fact they are paid extremely well (crane operators) and have very short shifts in a very nice environment. The cabs of those cranes are quite nice and comfortable, even considering the odd angle you sit at to see through the floor. I was friends with a crane operator when I lived in Washington. I was given a tour of the port, and was able to go up in the crane he operated and see how it all worked.

An excellent thread giving a brief history of the ILA and its president, Harold Daggett. You'll need to go to the link to read the whole thing.

https://x.com/johnkonrad/status/1841238819758358635

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

You're kidding right

Absolutely not, I am 1,000% not kidding. I am certain that you accidentally quoted the wrong person?

Let me simplify what my point was, in case by some really.odd chance you were actually responding to my comment and misunderstood what I said.

I made two points:

1) These people are not special in anyway. They aren't smarter than me or anyone else. They have zero skills that you couldn't train a person of average to slightly above average intelligence to learn and perform. Crane operators and heavy equipment operators are a dime a dozen (slight exaggeration, but point still stands).

2) We are a great nation with nearly unlimited resources and some of the brightest minds on the planet. There is no reason we can't further automate our moving heavy things processes.

You said words, but your words did not address ANYTHING I said. So please answer me. What special abilities do they have and why can't we further automate?


PS, I work extremely long hours at odd times. That does not make me special.

You are correct in so far as the work that these guys are doing isn't so super-specialized, where going to special schools and lengthy apprenticeships are necessary; there is an apprenticeship but nothing like a craftsman/builder trade. How do you break these guys? Bring in replacements or, scrubs....from where? How many people want to work on the waterfront, at all odd hours, in an economy when very few people want to work in heavy industry; our shipyards are struggling to find workers which include welders, plumbers, electricians et al.

What do you do if the West Coast ports strike in solidarity? What do you do if the Teamsters strike also in solidarity...truckers are half the equation to port operations, and we're approaching the holiday season. I'm all for getting US ports to modernize and be more efficient however there's a mountain of cultural inertia with dockworkers to get through and I'm not sure people understand this history; great post Balze by gCaptain. Perhaps we're at the inflection-point where dock-worker unions dissolve due to modernization; containerization took a of steam out of them in the later half of the 20th century.

This will come back and haunt Unions, in general, and the democrats at the pols. Americans will suffer because of their action, in already difficult times, automation will remove these outrageous demands they seek.

Sounds and looks like a mob boss criminal extorting us all.

Fire them ALL. Replace them with automation and the illegals they support so much through their democrat donations.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
[QUOTE]You're kidding right

What do you do if the West Coast ports strike in solidarity? What do you do if the Teamsters strike also in solidarity...truckers are half the equation to port operations, and we're approaching the holiday season. I'm all for getting US ports to modernize and be more efficient however there's a mountain of cultural inertia with dockworkers to get through and I'm not sure people understand this history; great post Balze by gCaptain. Perhaps we're at the inflection-point where dock-worker unions dissolve due to modernization; containerization took a of steam out of them in the later half of the 20th century.

West coast has their own contracts, so don't think they will strike. They could definitely slow down a bit, but they have already gotten theirs, so why bite the hand that feeds you before you need to as a union. I don't think the truckers are going to be on their side by any means. Dray truckers get paid when they are hooked up and moving containers. If the truckers are dry and not making trips they don't get paid. We use the ports of Tacoma & Seattle and the in and out are so inefficient because the gates are manned with a union supplied worker and a clip board. They tried to automate, but with the last contract (if I remember correctly) changed to manned gates. This slowed down the efficiency greatly, so now you get wait times of 30 min to a couple hours. If things are busy can grow past that, and guess what gates closes at end of day for pick-ups, the gates into the port. So if you are in line and the time is up, you get turned away. These wait times are then charged back to the dray companies which pass them on to companies like myself trying to get their containers.

Warehouse workers won't be on their side, because they are mostly paid hourly. If their is no inventory then no needs for hourly workers.

Everything affects everything else. Automation would bring efficiencies into the system and then port could handle more volume. This in turn would require more workers or training of un needed workers to fill that gap. So would in the long run be at least a net 0 loss, but possible gain in needed workers for moving more containers more efficiently.

This is just an all around DICK move by this union and it's members. And I hope it bites them in the ass. That port that Para posted about in China is one of many they have like that. And the port (TUAS) in Singapore that opened in 2022 is or was at the time of opening, the largest and basically fully automated. So they can do it and make it work, but we can't or won't?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The union can't stop this. They can only delay it. It's as simple as that.

Look at the efficiency. There is no way that the United States will not adopt this technology.

I agree. From what I read, the primary beef seems to be about automation. Even the big companies seem to be ready to pony up for substantial raises, albeit not as high as the union wants, SSDD. The contract they want bars the big shippers from using automation, which nobody is going to agree to. They aren't even getting traction with Biden over this issue.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

You're kidding right

...

You are correct in so far as the work that these guys are doing isn't so super-specialized, where going to special schools and lengthy apprenticeships are necessary; there is an apprenticeship but nothing like a craftsman/builder trade. How do you break these guys? Bring in replacements or, scrubs....from where? How many people want to work on the waterfront, at all odd hours, in an economy when very few people want to work in heavy industry; our shipyards are struggling to find workers which include welders, plumbers, electricians et al.

What do you do if the West Coast ports strike in solidarity? What do you do if the Teamsters strike also in solidarity...truckers are half the equation to port operations, and we're approaching the holiday season. I'm all for getting US ports to modernize and be more efficient however there's a mountain of cultural inertia with dockworkers to get through and I'm not sure people understand this history; great post Balze by gCaptain. Perhaps we're at the inflection-point where dock-worker unions dissolve due to modernization; containerization took a of steam out of them in the later half of the 20th century.

The problem I see in your response is the unions. The fact that an entire nation can be held hostage by a bunch of overpaid heavy equipment operators is ridiculous. I don't believe they have any special inate skills. They are average to slightly above average people that could be replaced with heavy equipment and crane operators.

To speak to Beancooker's post, the last 20% is the hardest part, but I've seen road workers and construction workers work what seems like magic to me with their machines. I'm sure there'd be a learning curve to it, but if you offered them the exact same contract (or less) that the longshoremen currently have I'm sure they'd be willing to learn the nuances pretty quickly. Not only that, after earning $400 a week unemployment, I'm pretty certain there'd be a few existing longshoremen willing to work for their current contact.

My industry has a shortage of people with the needed skills, you know what we did? We increased automation/AI/remote monitoring/etc and also partnered with a competitor and a community college to create an associates degree program in my field to fill the shortage.

So as far as I can ascertain their only real value is their ability to strike and the learning curve to replace them.

Unions have outlived their usefulness, we don't have people dying on the job anymore normally. My job is hard; I work long hours; it's dangerous; I get called in for emergencies. I have worked every shift and hour of the day. I don't demand outrageous pay increases. I have a value, if I'm not paid it I will go to the next employer who will happily pay me my value. These people could try to compete for better pay rather than extort for it. Problem is, no one will pay them what they earn to build skyscrapers or build roads

An honest question - the talk is all about product shipments from China (at least what I've seen) and how even 'made in America' products would be impacted since most needs parts from china etc.

I realize that the west coast ports are likely unable to handle the total volume, but doesn't most shipping from china go across the Pacific to the west coast? It seems like the long way around to go around africa etc. I could see this impacting oil imports, but there seems to be a relatively simple solution there (start pumping from all of those shale oil/oil sand wells that were idled when oil prices dropped? Am I being naïve and over simplifying?

Or is the worry here that the west coast union members will be 'brothers in arms' so to speak and slow down work to put even more pressure on the port operators? Thank you,

Shawn.

Oil carriers and oil imports are not affected by this strike.

Why is the ILA Union Against Port Automation?

Longshoremen at docks along the US East and Gulf coasts have gone on strike for the first time since 1977 as the union takes a hardline stance against automation found at other ports around the world.

The International Longshoreman’s Association halted negotiations in June with the US Maritime Alliance, a group representing port operators and ocean carriers. The union said an Alabama port operator’s use of new gate technology that scans and processes containers without worker involvement violated their existing contract. The ILA said it wouldn’t return to the bargaining table until the “issue is resolved,” idling some 45,000 dockworkers who are also pressing for higher wages.

The contract that the ILA agreed to in 2018 prohibits fully automated equipment at the ports and requires sign-off from the union for any new semiautomated equipment. “There’s no point trying to negotiate a new agreement with USMX when one of its major companies continues to violate our current agreement with the sole aim of eliminating ILA jobs through automation,” ILA President Harold Daggett, who serves as chief negotiator for the union, said in a statement in June.

US ports have seen technological progress over the last half-century despite union resistance. The advancements include the introduction of standardized shipping containers, which is credited with improving shipping efficiency worldwide and which Daggett says cost the union tens of thousands of jobs in the 1970s.

https://x.com/johnkonrad/statu...t-port-automation%2F



The union is wary of further changes, said John McCown, a shipping expert and senior fellow at the Center for Maritime Strategy. “They’ve drawn a line in the sand and aren’t going to accept anything that takes a job away.”

Ports across Europe and Asia, meanwhile, have already adopted fully automated technologies, like straddle carriers that can move and stack containers without human operators and systems that can check in cargo upon arrival.

Out of Step

Other major unions in the US have signaled more nuanced approaches to automation than the ILA’s stance. The latest Teamsters agreement with United Parcel Service Inc., ratified last year, requires the company to bargain with the union if it wants to introduce new technologies like drones or driverless vehicles but doesn’t bar them categorically.

The ILA’s stance is even out of step with the other major US longshoremen’s union. The International Longshore Workers Union, which represents around 20,000 West Coast dockworkers, allowed for full automation in its 2008 contract, although the issue was a sticking point in more recent negotiations.

Ken Riley, an ILA vice president based in Charleston, S.C., said the ILA supports technology that’s “helping someone be more efficient in the workplace.” But “to introduce something that’s going to eliminate our jobs, we will stand against it, if we happen to be the only one doing it.”

Economic Impact

The ILA’s work stoppage has halted ports along the East and Gulf Coasts with the combined capacity to handle as much as half of all US shipments. If it lasts a week, the strike could cost the economy as much as $7.5 billion, according to one estimate by Oxford Economics. Other estimates put the cost as high as $5 billion a day. The potential supply chain disruption carries even more weight coming so soon before the US presidential election. Some experts say the risk to the economy is so large the federal government will likely be forced to intervene before too long.

Daggett is using the strike as leverage to make the rules around automation even more restrictive, and not just in the eastern half of the US. At a rally on the picket line on Tuesday, he signaled plans to organize port workers worldwide against automation. “When we finally do get a contract I’m going to go to Portugal with every union in the maritime to take these companies on over automation,” Daggett said through a bullhorn at the Port of New York and New Jersey. And if automation arrives at ports in Chile, “we’ll shut them down for three weeks around the world.”

https://gcaptain.com/why-the-i...nst-port-automation/

quote:

Originally posted by sreding:
An honest question - the talk is all about product shipments from China (at least what I've seen) and how even 'made in America' products would be impacted since most needs parts from china etc.

I realize that the west coast ports are likely unable to handle the total volume, but doesn't most shipping from china go across the Pacific to the west coast? It seems like the long way around to go around africa etc. I could see this impacting oil imports, but there seems to be a relatively simple solution there (start pumping from all of those shale oil/oil sand wells that were idled when oil prices dropped? Am I being naïve and over simplifying?

Or is the worry here that the west coast union members will be 'brothers in arms' so to speak and slow down work to put even more pressure on the port operators? Thank you,

Shawn.

Not all the goods are from China. Some yes, because you have warehouses and dist. centers on the East coast. Cheaper to ship from China all water to the closest port to final destination. Transit is longer, but still cheaper than landing container on West coast and railing or in hot shipments, by truck to the East Coast. Very inefficient and adds cost. Plus if the rail backs up because of capacity limits, delay happen, then cargo is left at ports on docks and then ships can't unload. That's what happened in Covid once things opened up again. There was so many containers everywhere that you just have to pick a place and start digging before you can make room to actually start a flow of goods.

But produce from Central and South America are heavily represented in imports on the gulf and East coast. Those are all going to rot in the containers sitting on vessels or at the port the longer this goes. Import and export from Europe are going to suffer, as well as to and from the Caribbean islands that depend on the flow of containers.

If your goods are high dollar and you can justify using air cargo you have a better chance. Machinery and high cost electronics, and other high margin goods, will go that route. And air cargo cost will spike as well, so there is that as well.

Goods from India is a toss up, most go through the West Coast, but will some India to East coast makes since as well. Until you have the Houthis lobbing rockets and all. That adds an extra time going around the Horn of Africa.

It's like a living entity and the supply chain is the blood flow. Any part slows or breaks then the whole suffers. It just depends how important the part that breaks is. And ports are are arterial valve in the heart.

American made items don’t get stuck in port.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The union can't stop this. They can only delay it. It's as simple as that.

Look at the efficiency. There is no way that the United States will not adopt this technology.

Big nope.
As someone who designs and builds equipment that automates processes, I can tell you without doubt they are only postponing the inevitable. I've watched many a union press back against companies automating, trust me when I tell you the bean counters always eventually win. The simple ROI calculations cant be denied, demanding huge pay increases only makes that calculation all the more simple.

The main problem here is that the people that operate the equipment, in this case ILA, are usually in a different union than the people that maintain the equipment. Maintenance is always the higher skill trade. They always resist transitioning operations people over to maintenance because that means the end of the operations union.

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
American made items don’t get stuck in port.

Very good point. But we also have extremely cheap items that will never be made in the US again. The only way the tide would turn, is if you cut yourself off from the rest of the word and went total isolation. Christmas decorations for example, the cost and profit is so low, you couldn't produce the items in the US unless you tripled (and that is low) the prices. The only way to keep it competitive would be for the China factories to move to some place in central or south America Or US money go there and open up the production. Because the labor factor will never go away for these types of goods.

But believe it or not, getting things out of Mexico is more difficult than you would think (at least in my opinion). I have tried the last 2 years to source out of Mexico. They both were very nice quality set of goods, but the cost was so high at the end of the day, that we either canceled the PO or brought them in and just traded $ for $ to make customers happy in costs/profit. The cost to transport $25,000 dollars of goods cost me $11,00 and change. Same shipping would have cost me 1/4 to 1/3 at most from Asia (in normal times). That does not make sense at this time. I don't understand NAFTA II, because it did not do anything for my industry trying to source more locally.

It is frustrating.

Unions have long outlived their usefulness and are nothing more than legalized mob rings that use extortion.

The fecking IL mob boss makes over $900k a year…sag of shit.

Fire them all!

overpaid asshole

Everything cannot be automated. Cranes break down and need service. It is fascinating to watch the longshoreman offload cargo. Lots of cargo requires gentle handling. It is one of the few highpaying blue collar jobs. Where I live you have to be connected to work at the port.

quote:

Originally posted by Patriot:
Unions have long outlived their usefulness and are nothing more than legalized mob rings that use extortion.

The fecking IL mob boss makes over $900k a year…sag of shit.

Fire them all!

overpaid asshole

He lives in a pretty kick ass crib too.

************

Union boss who threatened to ‘cripple’ economy lives in luxe 7,000 square-foot mansion

Harold Daggett — the union boss who has vowed to “cripple” the US economy if ports don’t ban automation and raise dockworkers’ wages sharply — had a Bentley convertible parked outside his sprawling mansion in New Jersey this week, exclusive photos obtained by The Post reveal.

Photos taken by drone on Tuesday show the British luxury car parked with its top up outside what appears to be a five-car garage attached to his 7,136-square-foot, Tudor-style home located on a 10-acre property in Sparta, a leafy enclave 50 miles west of New York City.

The hulking, two-story mansion and its garage encircle a spacious backyard patio with an amoeba-shaped pool and a separate guest house situated next to what appears to be a massive, brick pizza oven.

The posh compound is nestled in a picturesque section of the Garden State near the Delaware Water Gap, where five-bedroom homes list for as much as $6 million, according to Zillow.

One realtor who spoke to The Post said that Daggett put the four-bedroom, six-and-a-half bathroom property on the market in 2004 at a listing price of $3.1 million before reducing it to $2.9 million. He eventually took it off the market.

https://nypost.com/2024/10/02/...yp&utm_medium=social