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I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted
Civil-asset forfeiture would be called robbery by any reasonable standard. It’s time for the practice to end.

National Review
Jibran Khan


Did you know that, in most states, the police can take your money and property without even charging you with a crime? Mundane actions such as having cash on hand have been cited as grounds for seizure, as a young man moving to Los Angeles to start a business discovered when his life savings were seized. He wasn’t detained, or charged with any crime — but he was left with nothing when the Drug Enforcement Agency took his cash. In any other situation, we would label this theft; the fact that the victim, Joseph Rivers, wasn’t taken in puts the lie to the idea that his behavior was some kind of threat or criminal activity.

Stories abound of abusive seizures justified under civil forfeiture. One family had its home taken because the son was caught with $40 of drugs; cities such as Philadelphia engage in hundreds of home seizures each year. In Texas, a family that drove for too long in the left lane of the highway was told by a county district attorney, Lynda K. Russell, that their children would be put in foster care, the parents would be put in jail, and their car would be seized — unless they handed over all of their cash, in which case they would be free to go. The town where that occurred, Tenaha, prides itself on this tactic, which ensures a steady flow of cash and goods from out-of-town drivers. In effect, the practice echoes the robbery of travelers by highwaymen in older days.

It’s extremely difficult, often to the point of impossible, to claim back seized property. A new Supreme Court case, however, might change that. Clarence Thomas has long been a vocal opponent of the civil-forfeiture practice. He wrote in his dissenting opinion against the Court’s refusal to hear the case Leonard v. Texas last year that:

This system — where police can seize property with limited judicial oversight and retain it for their own use — has led to egregious and well-chronicled abuses. . . . These forfeiture operations frequently target the poor and other groups least able to defend their interests in forfeiture proceedings. Perversely, these same groups are often the most burdened by forfeiture. They are more likely to use cash than alternative forms of payment, like credit cards, which may be less susceptible to forfeiture. And they are more likely to suffer in their daily lives while they litigate for the return of a critical item of property, such as a car or a home.

Justice Thomas has hoped for a civil-forfeiture case to come before the Supreme Court, so that this practice, which he views as incompatible with the due-process clause, can be analyzed on constitutional grounds. When it considers Timbs v. Indiana later this year, the Court will be able to do just that.

Tyson Timbs, who had a heroin addiction, received a life-insurance payment of about $70,000 when his father passed away. In January 2013, he used $42,000 of it to buy a Land Rover car, and spent the rest on drugs. There is no question that Timbs engaged in illegal activity by both buying and selling drugs, and that the state had a case against him on those grounds (although his sales amounted to just $225). After a confidential informant set up a series of purchases, Timbs was arrested that May at a traffic stop. He pled guilty to a charge of dealing and conspiracy, receiving a sentence of six years (with five suspended) and a $1,200 fine — his charge held a maximum fine of $10,000. The state went on to seize his car because of a bizarre state policy that allows private lawyers to sue for a forfeiture in order to receive a cut. Given that the car was worth four times the maximum fine, the lower courts in Indiana ruled that this penalty was grossly disproportional under the Eighth Amendment. However, the state supreme court reversed their ruling.

Samuel Gedge, an attorney at the Institute for Justice, tells National Review that the punitive seizure is hampering Timbs’s recovery. He has had to borrow his aunt’s car to get to work; his aunt, who has kidney failure, needs to take a bus to receive dialysis. The human cost of these seizures is never limited to the individuals. They ripple out to family members, whether indirectly, as in the case of Mr. Timbs’s aunt, or directly, as in the cases of those families who lose their cars or homes because a child was suspected of wrongdoing. The pressures and costs associated with seizure may incentivize a return to crime and drugs for many of those affected, creating a vicious cycle. Indeed, sometimes this is what law-enforcement agencies actively seek — such as a case where an officer waited until trucks had made their drug sales and were returning with cash in them instead, because that made for a more useful seizure (even though it meant allowing more criminal activity to take place). The system incentivizes policing for profit, rather than for public safety.

The way that seized money is spent is just as disgraceful as the takings themselves. Departments have used forfeiture funds to buy Mercedes-Benzes, BMWs, Corvettes, Hawaiian vacations, and ski trips — just to list a few. They have also used these funds to buy military equipment, which has contributed to the dissolution of Sir Robert Peel’s concept of good policing that held the police should be well-integrated with the public rather than seeing itself as a military force. It’s no surprise that Brad Cates, who headed up asset forfeiture at the Department of Justice in the 1980s, describes it as “a free-floating slush fund.” The taking of property from citizens who are not charged with crimes to fund lavish lifestyles for government officials sounds like something out of the most dysfunctional Third World regimes.

It’s heartening to see that the Supreme Court will hear the case. The practice is an affront to both constitutional and cultural norms, and has empowered law enforcement to engage in what would be considered criminality by any other measure. The incentive to police for profit encourages miscarriages of justice. Citizens who find themselves stripped of their property may resort to crime for quick cash. Removing civil forfeiture will not only reduce corruption; it will help fight crime.

Link




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Info Guru
Picture of BamaJeepster
posted Hide Post
If you believe in the constitution at all you have to know that this is blatantly UNconstitutional. There is no rational explanation or reasoning behind seizing property and holding it, forcing the rightful owner to prove that it is not illegal. No way, no how is this legal, moral or constitutional.



“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
- John Adams
 
Posts: 29408 | Location: In the red hinterlands of Deep Blue VA | Registered: June 29, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
quarter MOA visionary
Picture of smschulz
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
If you believe in the constitution at all you have to know that this is blatantly UNconstitutional. There is no rational explanation or reasoning behind seizing property and holding it, forcing the rightful owner to prove that it is not illegal. No way, no how is this legal, moral or constitutional.


Agree completely.
 
Posts: 23412 | Location: Houston, TX | Registered: June 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Wait, what?
Picture of gearhounds
posted Hide Post
There is a vast difference between traveling with a large sum of cash, and RayRay down the block having a handful of crack in one pocket, and a handful of cash in the other. That any agency can still steal someone’s money without being able to link it DIRECTLY to a crime is an absurdity. Any victim of such an abuse should be able to sue that department into oblivion.




“Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown
 
Posts: 15991 | Location: Martinsburg WV | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gearhounds:
There is a vast difference between traveling with a large sum of cash, and RayRay down the block having a handful of crack in one pocket, and a handful of cash in the other. That any agency can still steal someone’s money without being able to link it DIRECTLY to a crime is an absurdity. Any victim of such an abuse should be able to sue that department into oblivion.


The victim of such abuse certainly has the right to sue, but seldom the means. The po-po has your money. Moreover, the government has the resources to play keep away for long time, and figure that if the game goes on long enough, most will have to fold. The burden of proof is on the claimant, and if one detail is lacking, you lose.

I was involved in several of these cases, involving real estate assets, and each case was marked by government incompetence or appalling factual claims or both.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
posted Hide Post
Civil forfeiture cases have gone to the SCOTUS before, and the practice in general has been deemed to not violate the Constitution.
 
Posts: 21240 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
posted Hide Post
I hope Kavanaugh is confirmed by the time this case is heard.



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 9699 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Civil forfeiture cases have gone to the SCOTUS before, and the practice in general has been deemed to not violate the Constitution.


True, but wasn't the Dred Scott decision deemed Constitutional?
 
Posts: 1892 | Location: KY | Registered: April 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
10mm is The
Boom of Doom
Picture of Fenris
posted Hide Post
Long stretches in prison for officials involved would dramatically decrease these abusive practices.




God Bless and Protect the Once and Future President, Donald John Trump.
 
Posts: 17613 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
posted Hide Post
Yes. It was then a main cause of the Civil War, and finally took a Constitutional Amendment or two, to finally overrule.

quote:
Originally posted by SIGSense:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Civil forfeiture cases have gone to the SCOTUS before, and the practice in general has been deemed to not violate the Constitution.


True, but wasn't the Dred Scott decision deemed Constitutional?
 
Posts: 21240 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fenris:
Long stretches in prison for officials involved would dramatically decrease these abusive practices.


Unlikely to ever happen but I'd settle for putting those officials into personal bankruptcy for abuses of the process. That would deter 99% of these cases.
I don't want to see the taxpayers take it on the chin when most have no idea this is going on.


___________________________
Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible.
 
Posts: 9985 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
safe & sound
Picture of a1abdj
posted Hide Post
quote:
Unlikely to ever happen but I'd settle for putting those officials into personal bankruptcy for abuses of the process. That would deter 99% of these cases.
I don't want to see the taxpayers take it on the chin when most have no idea this is going on.



Maybe we could seize their personal and department assets until they could prove that they were not purchased with ill gotten seizure money.


________________________



www.zykansafe.com
 
Posts: 15946 | Location: St. Charles, MO, USA | Registered: September 22, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
10mm is The
Boom of Doom
Picture of Fenris
posted Hide Post
Sauce for the goose...




God Bless and Protect the Once and Future President, Donald John Trump.
 
Posts: 17613 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Info Guru
Picture of BamaJeepster
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Civil forfeiture cases have gone to the SCOTUS before, and the practice in general has been deemed to not violate the Constitution.


Just to be clear - I am aware that the issue has been litigated in court and found to be OK. I completely disagree with the ruling since I am able to read and comprehend things on my own. The courts have gotten it wrong and there is no support for such a practice in the constitution. The whole concept of innocent until proven guilty, the foundations of due process, and the concept of private property are in direct opposition to any such practice. Let the .gov seize their property when they have committed no crime and see how long the practice remains in effect. It's a shocking violation of the very founding principles of this country.

I don't see any difference in this versus illegally detaining someone if they are not charged with a crime. You think a guy is a drug dealer and the cash he is carrying is illegal proceeds from the illegal activity? Feel free to seize it and charge him with the crime and if he's found guilty, keep it. Don't have a case against him and are not going to charge him with a crime? Too bad, the guy gets to keep his cash until you can prove it's been obtained illegally. If that means some nefarious cash slips thru the cracks, that's just too bad.



“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
- John Adams
 
Posts: 29408 | Location: In the red hinterlands of Deep Blue VA | Registered: June 29, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Step by step walk the thousand mile road
Picture of Sig2340
posted Hide Post
SCOTUS should stamp civil forfeiture out with the most extreme of prejudice possible, ideally making every .gov agency return every iota of seized asset value, measured in current dollars, where the asset owner was not convicted of a directly associated felony.

Bankrupt the local, state, and federal agencies involved you cry?

Boo-motherfucking-ho. Cry me a river.





Nice is overrated

"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
 
Posts: 32371 | Location: Loudoun County, Virginia | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
10mm is The
Boom of Doom
Picture of Fenris
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
SCOTUS should stamp civil forfeiture out with the most extreme of prejudice possible, ideally making every .gov agency return every iota of seized asset value, measured in current dollars, where the asset owner was not convicted of a directly associated felony.

Bankrupt the local, state, and federal agencies involved you cry?

Boo-motherfucking-ho. Cry me a river.

I support financial sanctions of the organizations, but ultimately this will primarily hurt the tax payers, while the actual persons responsible will skate. If imprisonment is too harsh, then confiscate every single thing they own or can be associated with them. House, cars, furniture, family pictures, dogs, cats, and goldfish, bank accounts, retirement accounts, leave them the clothes on their backs. Repeat annually or monthly until all restitution is made to the original victims. If they want to sue. Fine. Case will be heard following full restitution, until then the forfeitures continue.

What about their poor children? Well, if they lack the means to support their own children, there is always foster care.




God Bless and Protect the Once and Future President, Donald John Trump.
 
Posts: 17613 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Sessions welcomes restoration of asset forfeiture: "I love that program"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/s...i-love-that-program/
 
Posts: 737 | Location: Florida | Registered: October 01, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Civil forfeiture cases have gone to the SCOTUS before, and the practice in general has been deemed to not violate the Constitution.


You wouldn’t happen to have a case cite handy, would you? I need to rereview this.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Political Cynic
Picture of nhtagmember
posted Hide Post
I've always thought that civil asset forfeiture was simply highway robbery under the guise of 'law enforcement'

I agree that anyone or any entity that participates in this should be held entirely personally accountable

if I recall, wasn't there an entire unit of the Kentucky State Police that exited for the sole purpose of gathering as much money as possible from innocent people by claiming that the cash they may have had was from drug proceeds?



[B] Against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC


 
Posts: 54061 | Location: Tucson Arizona | Registered: January 16, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Info Guru
Picture of BamaJeepster
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by nhtagmember:
if I recall, wasn't there an entire unit of the Kentucky State Police that exited for the sole purpose of gathering as much money as possible from innocent people by claiming that the cash they may have had was from drug proceeds?


That is Tennessee.

Several 'Drug Task Force' units are funded solely on asset seizures. Salaries, overtime, equipment - all the funding is provided by asset seizures. Guess how careful they are when seizing assets?
https://www.fox13memphis.com/t...egislators/495948192



“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
- John Adams
 
Posts: 29408 | Location: In the red hinterlands of Deep Blue VA | Registered: June 29, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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