Here is something that I think we've gotten way, way to far away from already, and in a number of ways.

What is it to be a man?

Of course, the most obvious answers come up. To be outwardly and stylishly masculine. To practice the rules of polite society.

I'm afraid, that the word "gentleman" has been taken far to literally, and along with some groups who seem bent on essentially emasculating our culture, what it is to be a man has already been deeply eroded.

I'll leave it to you to add your own examples to this thread, but I can distill it all to one key:

Being a Gentleman, is having the capacity for violence, but not first resorting to that capacity. At the core of the danger to our sons, is this idea that they cannot be who they naturally are.

This suppression and disapproval of aggressive behavior has deep consequences for the future of our people and our nation. Not simply in that we need people willing to defend it, but we need all shades of the aggressive spirit. Inquisitive, entrepreneurial, explorational.

I have to say, that I'm a Feminist. I believe women can do anything they're capable of. Which doesn't at all mean they should be allowed to, or accommodated for, when they are not actually capable of a task. This weakens us all.

Participation trophies, safe spaces, PC language, this is making soft, weak males. I can't really call them Men, and I won't call them Gentlemen.

"When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite."

Winston Churchill

You're a Gentleman, when you're actually a savage, but choose to behave yourself. If we lose contact with our savage selves, I fear that mass shootings and other calamity will only increase.

We are natural beings, that will always be true. The mistake that could damn us, is if we assume we've transcended the animal within.

quote:

Participation trophies, safe spaces, PC language, this is making soft, weak males. I can't really call them Men, and I won't call them Gentlemen.

Agreed. Some are raising an entire generation of them. (Hogg)

RMD

The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

- John Walter Wayland (Virginia 1899)

I'm afraid we may be 2 generations deep already.

quote:

Originally posted by phxtoad:
The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.

- John Walter Wayland (Virginia 1899)

To add some interesting context, here is the origin of this quote:

———————————

For more than half a century, our new members have recited "The True Gentleman," and no other words, save perhaps those of the ritual of initiation, have more nearly represented the ideals of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. It may be that few members have ever been able to exemplify all the attributes set forth in the statement, but it does set forth the perfecting purpose of the Fraternity.

Many years ago Judge Walter B. Jones, past Eminent Supreme Archon of SAE, came upon "The True Gentleman" and printed it in an Alabama Baptist Quarterly, which he edited. He sent a copy of the magazine to John Moseley, who was powerfully struck by the elegant words which accorded with his own philosophy of gentlemanliness. Moseley started using it in the Leadership Schools in the 1930s and it caught on quickly in chapters all across the land. Although John Moseley never claimed authorship, many came to believe that he had composed "The True Gentleman."
Because SAEs had no idea who the author was, The Phoenix indicated that the piece was simply "anonymous." In the 1970s, Phoenix editor Joe Walt discovered that "The True Gentleman" was also printed in a manual used at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis and that its author was John Walter Wayland. It turns out that many years ago, The Baltimore Sun conducted a competition for the best definition of a true gentleman. John Walter Wayland's submission was the winner. Thus it was printed in the Baltimore newspaper and was repeated in many publications thereafter.
No matter who the author, "The True Gentleman" reflects a major part of the substance of the ritual of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. New members memorize it and are asked to recite it. Awards are given to brothers who are thought best to exemplify it. Why do we regard it so highly, and what's in it for you as a member of Sigma Alpha Epsilon? Every organization is strengthened by tangible forms of a ritual. Athletic teams have mascots; churches have written rituals. Commercial enterprises have slogans, and countless private organizations of individuals, who have chosen to belong for any variety of reasons, have statements of philosophy that define and express their beliefs. Not only does "The True Gentleman" remind each member of his Fraternity's code of behavior, it also serves that same function for non-members. And since it is something every member of Sigma Alpha Epsilon has in common, it helps bond us, providing part of the glue that holds us together. After all, gentlemanliness is the starting point and the indispensable quality of lasting friendships.

- by Past ESR G. Robert Hamrdla

That being said, SAE is the fraternity whose University of Oklahoma chapter was involved in the imfamous charter bus racist chant in 2015, and its history over the past several decades is considered by some to have been anything but gentlemanly.

I would add skinny jeans or pants and tennie's to the mix. I mean at some level you need to look the part.

Thank you Arc.

Your "key" fits the lock.

I was influenced by such men and women, while being raised by those who were not.

It was confusing for a great part of my life, but the "gentlemen, (my grandfathers and uncles) and the strong women my (grandmothers and a few teachers) influences did the permanent molding of my character and drive, and for that, I am grateful.

I only regret not having more of them (time), and the wisdom to know of who's presence was of greater importance in the times I did have with them.

It is my hope that your son, and others like him, have fathers such as you.

They are the future and our immortality.

snoris - I am an SAE alum. While back in my college days we all memorized this passage, not much of it sank in during those exuberant times. It's only as the years went by that it's meaning has taken on more significance to me.

Groups of young college men do tend to fall into mob rule, regardless of the best intentions. At times it can become very ugly. Our house and most others have struggled with this.

There is hope for the younger generations, but their good influences seem to be fewer and farther between...

Todd

As a point of trivia, the world gentlemen originally was associated with social class and not behavior. One could behave like a right rotten bastard but still be considered a gentleman.

I prefer the current connotation.

Dan

I try and get my training weekly at a Gentlemens Club.

On this subject, I don't know if all the men who signed the Declaration of Independence were true Gentlemen or not but I am always humbled by the last sentence. It still tells me who they were and where they stood that day"

" with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor."

I wonder how many of our leaders would be willing to sign anything even close to that today?

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
On this subject, I don't know if all the men who signed the Declaration of Independence were true Gentlemen or not but I am always humbled by the last sentence. It still tells me who they were and where they stood that day"

" with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor."

I wonder how many of our leaders would be willing to sign anything even close to that today?

Sacred honor is kind of like dinosaurs. You hardly ever see any these days.

It hard to find men who are willing to risk their pensions!

quote:

Originally posted by KBobAries:
As a point of trivia, the world gentlemen originally was associated with social class and not behavior. One could behave like a right rotten bastard but still be considered a gentleman.

I prefer the current connotation.

Dan

Yes, though it's the "current" one I'm worried about. I'd say the "modern" meaning is the one that belongs.

What is masculine is not something to be thrown out or changed, and the idea that "non-violence" is a virtue is poison. Impotence does not lead to the furthering of the species for a reason. Seeking to make all men hold impotence as a value, is insidious.

My closest friend and I have this conversation every couple of months.

We grew up together as first generation Italian Americans and I can tell you there is a lot of truth to the tough guy mescaline macho stereotype. But we are both educated and well rounded men. So when we see the current state of what it means to be a Man or even Young Man in the USA we are both very upset.

Nothing I, or we, know about what it means to be a genuine man still applies.

Things like honor, respect, strength, strength of will, intelligence, and sometimes most importantly, principles, simply don't exist.

I'm happy to see that we are not the only two who think of these things and feel the way we do about them. Unfortunately as stated, we are generations removed and turning back is not going to happen.'

I think the modern "gentleman" concept that permeates our current culture would be recognized by British or early American gentleman as a "fop", a person, typically a fool, obsessed with his appearance and clothes rather than the manner of behavior. Another term used in the latter part of the 18th century for such a man was "macaroni"...used in the song "Yankee Doodle.

I often think of the WWII-era Commandos. Arc mentioned Churchill, whom I presume knew how to act as a gentleman should, but was no stranger to violence, and who authorized the creation of the commandos that were considered fairly brutal in their methods at the time. And yet, such men weren't ravening barbarians, but who instead were capable of moving between ruthlessness and savagery and back to societal concepts of politeness and honor in peacetime.

Robert E. Lee, defining a gentleman:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~cap/lee/gentdef.html

Last week I was walking out of a gymnasium up near Baltimore after my oldest son played basketball.

I had headed out to the parking lot to get the car to potentially shave some time off my 2+ hour drive home while my son said his goodbyes to his new teammates

As I pulled up to get him, a middle aged black woman came over to my drivers side window and knocked.

I rolled down the window and the following conversation occurred:

Her: “ I just wanted to thank you.”

Me: “excuse me?” (Honestly suspicious at this point that she was being sarcastic or had other ulterior motives since I had no contact with her prior to this personally)

Her: “when your son left the gym he saw me coming after he walked outside and he stopped to come back and hold the door for me. When I thanked him he told me to ‘have a good day ma’am’”. There are so few gentlemen left, I wanted to thank you for raising one.”

I was honestly almost speechless at that point. She thanked my boy again and we said our goodbyes and she headed off into the night and us into beltway traffic.


When I looked at my son he just grinned sheepishly. And even though he is 16 and damn near 6’9 at this point I tousled his hair like I did when he was a boy and told him I loved him.



FWIW, it’s not just him. His entire peer group and best friends are exactly the same. Now that I think about it they all have one thing in common....all of their fathers served in the military. I don’t know if that matters or not. One thing I do know is they are all good kids. All gentlemen. So it’s not hopeless.

Despite history, quotes by, or opinions of the man, this thread reminds me of something written by Gen. Douglas MacArthur. I think it applies regarding the qualities of a gentleman.

"Build me a son, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak, brave enough to face himself when he is afraid, one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory.

“Build me a son whose wishes will not take the place of deeds; a son who will know Thee — and that to know himself is the foundation stone of knowledge.

“Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail …”

“Build me a son whose heart will be clear, whose goal will be high; a son who will master himself before he seeks to master other men; one who will reach into the future, yet never forget the past.

“And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of sense of humor, so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously.

“Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true greatness, the open mind of true wisdom, and the meekness of true strength.

“Then, I, his father, will dare to whisper, ‘I have not lived in vain.'”

I have a book on gentlemanly behavior.

The entire thing is summed up perfectly in one piece of advice near the end, which I paraphrase since I can't find the bloody book.

"A gentleman always behaves in a manner that does not make another see themselves as either superior or inferior."