quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

None of that is to say that an actual attack would have resulted in only three “injured,” but not everyone who is exposed to the agent dies as a result.

Well, the Tokyo subway attack was an amateur clown show. Their delivery system sucked (plastic bags filled with sarin that they poked holes in with an umbrella - hardly an ideal attack method). . .

The report came from The Azov Special Operations Detachment, also known as the Azov Regiment or Azov Battalion until September 2014, it's a neo-Nazi unit of the National Guard of Ukraine based in Mariupol in the coastal region of the Sea of Azov.

No agenda there right?

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Well, the Tokyo subway attack was an amateur clown show.

Your point being …?

Mine was that people have been exposed to Sarin to the point that some die, but they don’t all die and therefore it’s possible for some to just be “injured.” And in case the rest of my statement was unclear as well: It wasn’t whether the claim about this attack was true but about Sarin exposure in general.

But now you’ve piqued my curiosity and therefore so I understand you, are you saying that a military (presumably nonamateur) attack would kill everyone who was exposed to the agent? Is there some way we would know that?
(And FWIW, there were evidently some survivors of the use of the agent in Syria that was carried out by military forces.)

Gen. Blaine Holt was just on with Sean Spicer and Lyndsay Keith (swoon).

According to his sources, there was a "chemical attack" delivered by drone.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
According to his sources....

Who/what are they? This is way too important an issue to accept anyone's comments as truthful or accurate without a mountain of verifiable evidence to back it up.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

But now you’ve piqued my curiosity and therefore so I understand you, are you saying that a military (presumably nonamateur) attack would kill everyone who was exposed to the agent?

Please. I never said a 'real' sarin attack would kill 'everybody.' But, I would certainly expect more than 3 injuries.


Use of chemical weapons by a real military force is a major deal, likely requiring permission from Putin himself. This would have massive political ramifications, so I would expect him, IF he ordered a sarin attack, to pick a big target (not 3 dudes at a bus stop).

Of course, maybe some logistics pukes messed up and slipped a sarin artillery shell in with the high explosive rounds by mistake. The USAF accidentally flew live nukes across the US by accident, so anything is possible.

https://www.dailywire.com/news...yed-by-a-man-in-drag

quote:

Saudi Arabian Media Releases Video Mocking Biden As Senile, Harris Played By A Man In Drag

Video is in the news story, it was a twitter post.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
But, I would certainly expect more than 3 injuries.

Agree.
We may be talking past each other, but you are of course right.

My experience in chemical weapons dates back to the early 80s.

There were several physical properties of the agents and method of deploying them.

Liquid, in a watery base, oily and solvent, as well as liquified gas.
There was plasticized base that was "pelletized or flake" as well as a "grated/ground" while in flight.

Things that affected the lethality, besides the agent itself, was weather conditions, terrain, and surfaces.

Depending on the agent and physical properties the increase/decrease of effectiveness could swing one way or the other, from wet/dry, wind/calm, hot/cold temps, sunshine/darkness, dirt/sand/rock, grass/foliage(bush/brush) or forest/jungle, high elevation like hills/mountain or low places, valleys, trenches, foxholes, and buildings, above/below ground.

Some of the conditions could make the agents more or less persistent.

Agents inhaled, absorbed through the skin.

Some are "harassing" agents similar to tear gas, pepper sprays, nausea inducing and such, incapacitating that could result in convulsion and loss of consciousness, agents that can burn/blister skin, eyes, airways/mucous membranes and deadly agents.

One of the greatest effects were the level of effort and resources to be prepared, trained and maintain readiness coupled with the psychological impact on moral and focus of mission.

The whole of "chem warfare" component added to the day to day overall preparedness is a real "consumer" of time, energy and resources to warfighting effort.

And the actual threat of injury or death is much less than one might imagine, (small chance of an encounter, effectiveness) yet no less comporting when facing the possibility of encountering the reality of agents.

If we can't just all get along, can we simply kill each other in less messy fashion?

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:


And the actual threat of injury or death is much less than one might imagine, (small chance of an encounter, effectiveness) yet no less comporting when facing the possibility of encountering the reality of agents.

When I was in the USAF, I became convinced all the chem gear was just designed to live maybe an hour or so longer, in order to complete our mission for JUST a bit longer until we all died. Really, I was at Kapaun Air Station, an 8 mile drive from Ramstein (Germany) where our chem shelters were. I rode by those shelters on my bicycle once - they were old, rusted, had standing water in the entryways, and looked very neglected (this was 1991-92). But, we still trained on chem gear. The 'plan' was for us to evac to the shelters, where we would wait it out until help arrived for a permanent decontamination/clean-up treatment. Yeah, we were going to drive 8 miles through a rural/small town area that just suffered a chemical attack.

Of course, the threat of gas is often enough to achieve a military objective. In WWI, somebody yelling 'Gas!' was enough to incite panic and cause an entire front line to drop their weapons and flee. Face it, chemical weapons are terrifying.

quote:

If we can't just all get along, can we simply kill each other in less messy fashion?

I think this was the allied/axis approach in WWII. The Germans developed the first nerve agents (sarin, soman, etc; hence they are called "G-type agents") but never used them. The thought was that chem warfare hindered the offense as much as the defense. They weren't even used in the defense of Berlin.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
But, I would certainly expect more than 3 injuries.

Agree.
We may be talking past each other, but you are of course right.

The Japanese hung all 7 Aum Shinrikyo cult members who carried out that attack

"A Russian source is saying the Moskva has sunk and that the explosion was from a Ukrainian Neptun missile strike. Apparently, Ukraine flew a TB2 UCAV to distract the ship while it was targeted by the Neptun. The ship rolled onto its side after the strike."

This is from War Monitor. Other sources as well. Apparently the Ukrainians hit the ammo compartment. The ship went down rather quickly. 510 Russian sailors on board. Largest single loss of life for the Russians of the war. Hope its true.

The Russian Defence Ministry confirmed that it was hit, but is claiming all crew were evacuated.

The truth is likely somewhere in between.

^^^^ The Russian Defense Minister is saying that the ship was damaged due to an onboard fire that reached the ammunition compartment and had nothing to do with an attack by Ukraine. Furthermore Russia claims that all sailors were evacuated from the ship.

Pick your propaganda of choice.

ETA: Rogue beat me to it

Moskva is possibly the hardest RU surface Navy target, possessing three fire-control radars, two search radars, two heavy antiaircraft cannons, six 30mm CIWS cannons, 20 short-range surface-to-air missiles and 64 long-range air defense missiles.

Also from War Monitor

IF a fire reached a magazine and caused an explosion, then almost certainly sailors were killed and/or injured. If a fire threatened a magazine, then I would expect the crew to fight the fire in close proximity to the magazine. When the magazine exploded, many of the firefighters would be consumed by the explosion.

No way, IMO, was the 'entire crew' evacuated if the magazine went up. And if the ship didn't sink, why would the entire crew evac?. . .

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

quote:

Originally posted by Fed161:
Moskva is was possibly the hardest RU surface Navy target, possessing it possessed three fire-control radars, two search radars, two heavy antiaircraft cannons, six 30mm CIWS cannons, 20 short-range surface-to-air missiles and 64 long-range air defense missiles.

Fixed it.

Bravo Zulu Ukraine!