quote:

Originally posted by IrishWind:

quote:

Originally posted by IrishWind:
Nah, that pilot will be given a medal for destroying a spy plane. Maybe even turn it into a movie.

Called it! Awards given to the two pilots.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/rus...ilots-094828825.html

Well, it didn't exactly take Carnac the Magnificent to see that one coming.

Sooo, the 'Crazy Ivan' Distinguished Flying Cross?

quote:

Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:

quote:

Originally posted by IrishWind:

quote:

Originally posted by IrishWind:
Nah, that pilot will be given a medal for destroying a spy plane. Maybe even turn it into a movie.

Called it! Awards given to the two pilots.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/rus...ilots-094828825.html

Well, it didn't exactly take Carnac the Magnificent to see that one coming.

I send somebody from this squadron to Murmansk. I do something here, I still can't believe it.

Valimir says give you your dream shot! In Russia we send you up against best.

You two characters are going to Topski Gunski.

It was a legitimate target. NATO is feeding Ukraine targeting info in real time.

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
It was a legitimate target. NATO is feeding Ukraine targeting info in real time.

So you are saying we should trigger Article 5 now?

quote:

Originally posted by IrishWind:

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
It was a legitimate target. NATO is feeding Ukraine targeting info in real time.

So you are saying we should trigger Article 5 now?

Do you feel your position on this matter to be indefensible to the degree that you pull stunts like this? Referring to some article or provision or law or whatever that you can reasonably assume others in this thread aren't familiar with? This is a cheap tactic and it doesn't convey what I'm guessing you think it conveys.

Are we suggesting this was an attack on NATO?

If we want a war bad enough we’re not beyond instigating one:

The Gulf of Tonkin incident (Vietnamese: Sự kiện Vịnh Bắc Bộ) was an international confrontation that led to the United States engaging more directly in the Vietnam War. It involved both a proven confrontation on August 2, 1964, carried out by North Vietnamese forces in response to covert operations in the coastal region of the gulf, and a second, claimed confrontation on August 4, 1964, between North Vietnamese and United States ships in the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin. Originally American claims blamed North Vietnam for both attacks. Later investigation revealed that the second attack never happened

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

^^ That's hardly the only precedent in play. The Russians have supported people fighting us with weapons, training, gear, arms and intelligence from Korea to the present day. The Russians have also felt perfectly free to send bombers into what they and the rest of the world acknowledge to be our airspace.

For us to float a Predator over international waters to monitor what's happening is absolutely nothing, and no justification whatsoever for their deliberately interfering with our drone.

As for us providing real-time intel with it, it's hard to see how that's a problem given Russia's past behavior and the fact that - over the Black Sea - it wasn't right on top of any fighting that's been occurring. I'm sure the Predator can see far, but that's no different from US and NATO airplanes monitoring the fighting from the air over Poland or Romania. It's certainly no more of a "provocation" than Russia launching airborne missiles from Russian and Belarussian airspace that have to pass through Moldovan airspace to strike in Ukraine.

No, I'm not arguing that this should trigger a fight directly between NATO and Russia. But we're not instigating a war and we would have every right to send along warplanes to protect the drones if we chose to. There was nothing about it for Russia to bitch about.

+1 to Cattivo. Russia can fret about a UAV over 100nm from their closest point of occupied land, but it rings real hollow since they started this conflict in 2014 with an illegal invasion of Crimea, and backing and supporting insurgents in eastern Ukraine. And then decided to go all in last year. It is funny to see Russia send two fighters outside their normal operating area to bring down a UAV. Just shows they are losing this war that they have to pull stunts like this to see a 'win'.

"Remember the Maine", 'Gulf of Tonkin Incident(s)' Two, for starters.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an isolationist, an anti-interventionist definitely.

Miss Linsey and others are playing with fire when they mischaracterize what's happening in the conflict area.

Some long time ago when I was a college boy, there was a discussion in my philosophy class. I have no recollection of the topic, but one of my classmates attempted to make an argument that got the prof either out of or deeply into his philosopher's cocoon. Standing up and in a voice I recall as loud he pointed at my friend and imparted the lesson:

"As you go through life and have long forgotten what you learned here, just remember one thing and you can go far: Never, ever, under any circumstances should you believe your own bullshit."

That truism ought to be part of the oath every government whoozit takes before he assumes his office.

It amazes me that nobody wakes up to the fact that America is under armed for today's scenario's. We are running low on certain supplies of ammo and missiles due to helping Ukraine. For Pete's sake, that isn't the America I was brought up in.

Let's take howitzer ammo for instance. It takes heavy industries with skilled workers to produce it. Our heavy industries have been decimated by off shoring to....China.

During WWII, multiple industries contributed to the war effort. The place where I work, made artillery ogives, the nose cone that holds the fuse. The place down the street made cannon breaches (Oliver Chilled Plow) and another, lots of trucks (Studebaker) came out of my modest Midwest city. Heavy industrial production was what America did best. Even during the late 70"s America supposedly, stood ready to fight a 2 front conventional war.

That's all changed now. American industry is a mere shadow of it's former self, unable to support it's own military industrial needs. Skilled trades workers are impossible to come by. Most machine tools are imports anymore. Hell, I tried to by an American made pair of work shoes last weekend. An exercise in frustration.

Like WTF happens if America and China have a dust up? Are Walmart's and Harbor Freight going under? Are Americans going shoe less? Jeez' what a mess....

While I'm happy to see Putin's conventional forces degraded by Ukraine, and everybody likes an underdog, the bigger picture is, it is weakening our supplies. That in it's self is inexcusable in my book.

We are America for Gods sake. We should have 4 or more times the supplies we have on hand. The U.K. situation makes me want to puke.

If you really don't want to sleep at night, consider a situation that warranted a draft...conscription. Can you imagine the snow flakes, we frequently bitch about, showing up for a draft? Fighting for America? I have one working in my department. A 14 year Army vet that does burial details, and a complete Socialist. A freaking oxymoron. Chastises me for getting Socialist mixed up with Communist. Take me now Lord....

I'm sure you've heard of the old Chinese curse/ blessing..."May you live in interesting times".

p.s. Snooping around on the corporate website, I'm seeing a new corporate buzz phrase showing up...on shoring.

^^^ And yet production has already kicked in in both the US and Europe on a scale calculated to keep donor inventory up and still meet Ukrainian needs.

And a war with China (sea war vs land war) would require a whole different suite of weapons - of which US (and other) stocks have not been diminished by support for Ukraine. If anything, geared up Korean production to support sales to Poland would increase production capacity the US could access if the Chinese went into Taiwan. All that, of course, assuming Xi doesn't look at Putin's failures and decide a decade or two of more preparation is in order.

There's also no sign of anything approaching the reinstitution of the draft - or any reason for it.

From all indications Putin and Xi were waiting for a weakling like Biden to sleaze his way into claiming the Presidency. So far that hasn't paid off, and seems unlikely to do so unless we let ourselves get paralyzed by the fact that Uncah Ho is squatting in the White House. IOW, its yet another situation where we don't have to let ourselves be further screwed by Biden unless we just throw up our hands and give up because one election got stolen.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
^^^ And yet production has already kicked in in both the US and Europe on a scale calculated to keep donor inventory up and still meet Ukrainian needs.

Do you have any links to the information on which you are basing this assertion?

quote:

Originally posted by 41:
[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Dt6Krr0KOHw" title="YouTube video player" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I’ve said for years, going back to MFN for China in 2000, that China is the biggest threat to the US.

I do my absolute best not to buy stuff made in China. It’s hard, but not impossible, for almost everything except some consumer electronics.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
^^^ And yet production has already kicked in in both the US and Europe on a scale calculated to keep donor inventory up and still meet Ukrainian needs.

Do you have any links to the information on which you are basing this assertion?

http://www.nytimes.com/2023/01...aine-ammunition.html

http://www.defenseone.com/poli...n-2024-budget/383939

http://www.defensenews.com/glo...to-boost-production/

(the article linked to above also describes efforts by individual countries to increase supplies)

http://www.reuters.com/world/e...-ukraine-2023-03-20/

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
http://www.reuters.com/world/e...-ukraine-2023-03-20/

1 MILLION 155MM shells? We didn't fire that many in 20+ years in A-stan. Something just isn't adding up. The Rate of fire is 2 RPM. How many arty pieces do they have? Are they going 24/7? Those numbers just don't make sense and I call bullshit

Ukraine has around 1,600 arty guns. They got a bunch of Russian 152mm, a small amount of the big Russian 203mm, the American Stryker chambers the full round 105mm like Nam Era howitzer and the AC130 gun ship, a good number of American M777 155mm guns, a small number but maybe as many as 50 Paladin M109 155mm, the awesome French Caeser 155 and the top dog from Sweden, Archer 155mm.

Russia Overtakes Saudi Arabia To Become China’s Top Oil Supplier

https://oilprice.com/Energy/En...op-Oil-Supplier.html

Russia was the single largest crude oil supplier to China in January and February, overtaking Saudi Arabia which was the number-one supplier of oil to China last year, according to Chinese customs data cited by Reuters.

As China accelerated the buying of cheap Russian crude oil at discounts to international benchmarks, Chinese imports of crude from Russia jumped by 23.8% year over year to 1.94 million barrels per day (bpd) in January and February 2023, per the data reported by China’s General Administration of Customs.
China reports trade and economic data for January and February together to remove distortions around the fluctuating week-long Lunar New Year holiday.

In the first two months of this year, Russia beat Saudi Arabia to the top spot of Chinese crude oil suppliers as imports of Saudi crude fell by 4.7% to the equivalent of 1.72 million bpd, compared to 1.81 million bpd for the same period of 2022.

For the full-year 2022, Saudi Arabia was China’s top crude oil supplier – ahead of Russia – with shipments averaging 1.75 million bpd.

In recent months, China has been buying increased volumes of Russian crude as Moscow pivoted its sales to Asian markets following the Western embargoes and price caps on its crude oil and refined petroleum products.