Half the world seems to be in a snit over 60 down-armored, gadget-stripped, super tanks that nobody in that country can maintain, drive or much less fight. That's a tank battalion, in the U.S. a light colonel would command that unit.

Vlad has a tank Army in mothballs, more than 10,000 tanks, and more than 2,000 field ready or fielded already. If I was in that light colonel's BDUs I'd be hoping that somebody knew what they were doing.

The chattering classes, including in some of the pieces we've copied and posted here, are all agog about how these machines will change the face of battle. Well, maybe. There's a picture above of one that is likely down-configured than the ones we take to war, so they aren't impervious to anti-tank fire. We knew that but there's the pic.

I have only seen M1's and they are certainly impressive. But another footnote to the super tank theory is that it doesn't always play out. Super tanks have a spotty campaign history. In Europe in the 1944 unpleasantness the Germans as usual had super weapons, super-tanks, the Panther and it big brother the Tiger. It outclassed the American Shermans in every way; gun, armor, visability, main gun (the superb 88 vs the Sherman's 75).
Sherman's did poorly against the German tanks but the Americans had lots and lots of Shermans. The swarms and then waves of Shermans nuetralized the effectiveness of the super tanks.

one tank battalion vs a tank Army comes to mind again.

Give, don't give but the hoopla in my mind is foolish. Those tanks are extraordinarily unlikely to change the course of the war.

and I'd like to doff my cap to Mbinky on this stuff. Man, you are an encyclopedia on this topic. I learn something every time you throw in your points.

Just a minor point, an addendum really; you said you can't keep tank crews from getting into the mud. I agree, but I also believe deep in my heart that on that rare ocassion when the driver doesn't want to go in the mud, the #$%* tank will decide for itself. It will also break a torsion bar while setting in the tank park just to piss you off.
Anyway I lern from your posts.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Here's an interesting video I stumbled across today, showing GoPro footage of a close quarters gunfight involving a small unit of international fighters in Ukraine attempting to dig a Russian unit out of a house in which they had barricaded themselves. (They claim the Russians were Spetsnaz, but there's no way to verify that. Could be kinda like how in WW2, some GIs would claim every German unit they fought were Waffen-SS and every tank they encountered was a Tiger...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQeyk1BQ7LE

I won't bother embedding, because it's age-restricted so you have to click through to YouTube anyway. But the video itself isn't graphic/bloody, since nobody is hit on screen, and still photos at the end of the after-effects are pixelated/censored.

Based on this and the other videos, the camera guy himself appears to be a European volunteer (slightly accented English) working as part of an light anti-tank rocket team alongside several Americans, at least one Canadian, and other Europeans. There are several prior videos in the series showing the immediate lead-up to this house fight, with them hunting down Russian BMPs operating in the area, but this particular video showing their eventual engagement in a close quarters fight is the most intense.

Seems to be from an action a Finnish volunteer mentioned in his detailed account of serving in Ukraine. A compatriot recapped/translated it on another board:

quote:

- He began to post on anonymous Finnish forum ylilauta sometimes during summer (ylilauta is Finnish equivalent to 4chan). Although the forum is hardly known from rigorously verified information, he checks out, his early pictures show same guns what he used in the video above, and LT Ralf Sirén, perhaps most prominent Finnish volunteer who served in Ukraine, confirmed that they served in same unit. He is not any of the volunteers whose exploits I have covered previously.

Apply usual caveats about possible exaggeration, coloured opinions and so on.

-So he joined few weeks after Yavoriv base attack. At that time, Foreign Legion was in bit of chaos, so he was refused. Instead he joined in Georgian Legion. After indeterminate time, he was kicked out due to some careless talk.

-He really has nothing good to say about Georgian Legion [but then he probably has slight grudge]. Basically he describes the outfit as a criminal gang. He was nearly killed by ND from one of the trainers. He tells how one of the head honchos of the Legion eventually had to flee Ukraine and settle to Britain, with several people swearing that they'll off him after the war.

-Goes to International Legion after that. He talks about same spat between Sirén and battalion CO Bogdan, which Lindybeige's friend (in earlier video linked) mentioned.

-As for his motivation, he felt directionless and depressed in Finland. In his summer/autumn postings, he says he loves it in Ukraine and sounds very cheerful, unfazed by numerous anti-war/pro-Russian trolls which plague the board and try to bait him. Said that if he survives this war, he will probably go look for another, and this was apparently very common talk in the Legion.

-He was not part of the Finnish platoon which participated in battles of Kharkiv and Zaporižžia fronts in spring/summer. He was on some quiet sector and outside few shells landing in vicinity, did not really see action until September.

-I'm skipping the descriptions of hookers/drugs and various dumb or dangerous activities the guys do to pass time during the quiet period.

-As for drug use, he says it was a problem as lot of the guys would do them, and some would smoke pot in sentry duty and then pass out. However he later notes that eventually Ukrainians stomped down on the drug situation by threatening with heavy punishments, and it was greatly reduced.

-Usual talk about which nationalities are the best, I'm largely skipping it. He rates Americans among the best, though (however, he later changes this opinion a bit as we see), and Swedes the worst. That might be another slightly biased opinion He singles out 3 Swedes he met, first two were posers and third one was long time drug user and Neonazi.

-problem personalities were various psychos "who would have killed & raped My Lai without pause" and fantasized aloud about killing, and for some it didn't seem to matter if the killed were Russians. He steered clear of those cases. Also posers, and how they would claim to be trained to do X, and then couldn't do it of course.

-During all this idle time there was training, however it was pretty spotty and sporadic. Some American guy or somesuch would randomly show up, hold a lecture or drill of some subject, and leave, and then it was back to idling.

-Money quote guaranteed to make some people's day: about Russian and Ukrainian way of fighting: "They're both Russians, they fight the same" :P

-talks about infamous chicken porridge, and mentions rumour that 'chicken' was actually pigeon. "Would explain why I didn't see any pigeons in town".

-enough of that, on to September and Kharkiv offensive. By that time he was on Sirén's platoon. Battle of Petropavlivka took four days.

-First day, as we saw already. He says he couldn't see anything from his sniper scope, so he left after his buddy was wounded and he was drawing plenty of return fire. Because of the sniper rifle, he didn't carry plates or helmet that day and they were left in the Nissan.

-Day two, and this is pretty controversial, so I try to translate him as accurately as possible. I gather that Irish volunteer Rory Mason was his squad leader, and Sirén was platoon leader (probably called 'Alfa'?).

"Day two, everybody else heads out and Platoon Leader tells me to stay behind as my plates and helmet burnt. Before they leave, they come to tell me that me and my buddy did very well and saved the bunch from the BMP. Apparently it backed up when my buddy opened up with the Kord. And then it came back and messed up our former position once we left. American squad thought that we were "got lit the fuck up" -dead as it raped that intersection with 30mm fire.

One guy was super cheerful and reminded me that you can always get new gear, but you can't buy a new life. Squad leader says "We'll see again" and off they go to continue mission. I spend my time depressed and smoking in a neighbourhood reminding me of environment of Metro 2033.

Late evening the gang is back and I ask the Nazi Medic [he really said that - I think that guy had Totenkopf style skull patch] how it went?

"[Rory Mason] is dead." ....

"Okay, take your time and come here then to tell what happened."

The guys had been in firefight with some Spetsnaz who had barricaded themselves in a house. Squad leader spent about 30 minutes trying to negotiate with them and convince them to surrender. Finally a Russian comes out from the house, hands up, without his gun.

Immediately, leader of the American Squad shoots him in the head.

Russians realize they are holed up, and prepare to fight to the death. Squad leader tries to run for cover from the house. Russians shoot him to his side, between the plates. Squad leader dies on the arms of the medic few minutes later as the fight goes on. Last words were "I'm dying..." and his pupils contracted and lips went white.

The medic asked the American immediately after the shot, why did he do that, and he just replied "Fuck that guy."

The guy who had been very cheerful in the morning tried to charge the house MOUT style, he was shot through the head and he had fist-sized hole in posterior of his skull. He didn't die, he could even follow simple commands. However the guys did not tie him properly on the ATV and he fell during evacuation. He is now attached to ventilator in the hospital. We were just in the same hospital with him; apparently his family is on his way to pull the plug. Some guys went to say their last goodbyes to him but I had no desire to see him anymore.

During the battle following happened:

Almost entire Yankee Squad got wounded in the firefight. One of them was missing half his jaw. We are not exactly going to miss these guys as they were pretty cocky, and wouldn't perform menial tasks. They just shot up testosterone and flipped. Those who didn't get wounded, immediately terminated the contract as they didn't want to get killed because of us.

Somebody fired a thermobaric warhead into the building from some weird RPG.

Alfa guy fucked up throwing F1 grenade, it bounced back from the wall. He picked it up and threw it in the window 0.5 seconds before it went off. Previous day, he had been shot in the chest, straight at the plate [this can be heard mentioned on the previous video].

An American wounded to the neck ran away from the medic, twice.

Brazilian RPG-hero shot at least five rockets without ear protection, after the day he couldn't hear pretty much anything.

Last of the Russians was toughest, he wounded six of us before somebody managed to kill him.

These Russkies had tactical pouches, AK-12's and surprisingly neat clothes. Fattest guy was the officer. However they did not have proper tourniquets, or optics.

Platoon leader was messed up, he was overcome by the crisis and American Squad leader took the command of the situation. Platoon leaders hands were shaking all night, he is blaming himself from the FUBAR.

I decided that the best way to show respect to the fallen friend is to go to work next day and try my best. Platoon leader went to instant leave, I took his helmet, and one American's vest for the next day."

https://www.tanknet.org/index....ment&comment=1654821

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:
This evening I learned of a device donated by Germany called DM22 Parma. Its a anti armor mine which can set for as long as 40 days in wait. It triggers via fiber optic cable or infrared. Does a good job on tanks from the side impact. Saw a vid of a few russians in small groups on foot. They had tripped the damn thing and got destroyed immediately. The poster of the video called it a death ray.. . They aren't intended for use on individuals but do work well.

PARM is for Panzerabwehr-Richtmine, anti-tank directional mine. It's basically a shortened Panzerfaust 3 on a tripod.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne

That's why I'm a proponent of sending refurbished Leopard 1s which are actually in the same MLC as the Soviet types. The Ukrainians have already received a few Slovenian M-55S which are vastly upgraded T-55 with a NATO-standard 105 mm gun, so at least the ammunition should be in their system already. Depending upon whom you ask, there are 150-190 retired Leopard 1 in German industry stocks alone, another about 200 in Italy, etc.

The crucial part in maintaining any Western type in Ukrainian service will not just be user capabilities, but supply of spare parts and ammunition from the donors. Germany chose to send the Leopard 2A6 variant over the older A5 (only used as OPFOR at our national training center anymore) specifically because of the better availability of spares in the long run. Even so, delivering just 14 of them will have a serious impact on the German tank fleet overall.

Completely agree. By keeping with the current load class (MLC) you can use the current indigenous recovery assets. I love the M88 but let me tell you, when we went from the M88A1 to the A2 I swear mechanics forgot how to be mechanics. They were down almost as much as out tanks. The M88 can recover pretty much anything but it is uniquely suited to recovering the Abrams.

What I am saying is, if I had the M1 I would want (need) M88’s. By keeping to the ‘local’ weight vehicle you could use the already in house recovery assets.

Besides parts another issue I see is tool kits. The Abrams has a pretty hefty set of special tools required to maintain it. GMTK’s (general mechanic tool kits) and other basic hand tools won’t cut it.

A full up field level tool kit is a lot to cart around. But necessary. And you can’t just send one because every tank company (14 tanks by US doctrine) will need those tools.

And the worst part?

Go ahead and order some of these special tools through the US supply system. See what kind of status shows up. What kind of estimated delivery date.

Some of those tools have not been built in decades (mostly some of the specialized turret repair tools that do not get used a lot, but they are all needed, especially if you are firing a lot).

Unless the US Army plans on just pulling tool kits out of their ass and gifting them to Ukraine (and screwing over some active Army Units) I don’t know how they can be fully capable of maintaining the tanks they have been ‘gifted’ in the near term.

This is a major repair that was performed on the main gun. As an active USMC unit it took us about 6 months to get the part. We had to borrow some of the tools from a sister unit to do the job because the tools we were missing had been backordered for months and had not yet arrived.



So yea, I’ll say it again, sending Abrams to Ukraine is silly.

quote:

Originally posted by wishfull thinker:
and I'd like to doff my cap to Mbinky on this stuff. Man, you are an encyclopedia on this topic. I learn something every time you throw in your points.

Just a minor point, an addendum really; you said you can't keep tank crews from getting into the mud. I agree, but I also believe deep in my heart that on that rare ocassion when the driver doesn't want to go in the mud, the #$%* tank will decide for itself. It will also break a torsion bar while setting in the tank park just to piss you off.
Anyway I lern from your posts.

Appreciate the kind words.

I like your minor point lol. Tanks truly have a mind of their own. Decades ago I had this one tank, C11 (Chuckles One One). Never made it to the field. NEVER. No matter how much we worked on it, it would always shit the bed when it was time to go. One time we thought we had it ready to go, thought we were finally gonna bring her out to the field…and she aborted right there on the ramp while in line to fuel and arm up.

We used to call her the “Millennium Falcon” because she never made the jump to light speed

Twenty years later I had a tank called Big Frank. Yes, Frank the tank. Constantly broke down. Give it attention, ignore it, didn’t matter, Frank was grumpy, Frank would refuse to train.

I guess the moral of the story is no matter how much love you give them they will always try to rebel when they can

One thing I have to say.

It has been a long time since I have fixed a tank under fire.

I showed this thread to a friend that was still in.

LOL. He said I had to sing the song.

We are both First Mar Div Guys…

We are both pretty good at fixing tanks.

We both had good lives.



Do Not send tanks to UA. It will not end pretty.

The last tank I worked on in combat.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mbinky,

Mbinky, is the part that is stenciled with Big Frank, a bore evacuator? We had a spherical device that was on the tube on our 76mm OTO Melera gun. When fired the pressured gasses entered the bore evacuator as the projectile passed it and it remained filled with high pressure gas until the projectile exited the muzzle. The high pressure gasses then began escaping the bore evacuator due to the lower pressure. This effectively drew any gasses still in the chamber area down the tube to exit the muzzle. Thus keeping the gasses out of the gun mount so we didn’t choke to death on it. At 80 rounds a minute, there was a lot of smoke.

Am waiting for footage of JDAMS being dropped from Ukraines russian fighters. They have some now and more on the way. Its my favorite destructive device. They are getting GBU39s which are rocket propelled 250 pound iron bombs. They deploy wings after being fired from M270 GMLRS or the 142 HIMARS launchers. GPS guided and can laser track. These little small diameter bombs can actually fly quite a distance and locate a target. Still limiting Ukraine to use in their own country.

Alexander Vindman and the Road to World War III

https://www.realclearwire.com/..._war_iii_880075.html

Retired U.S. Army LTC Alexander Vindman, who gained fame for helping Democrats impeach President Donald Trump for a phone call Trump had with Ukrainian officials in July 2019, is urging the Biden administration and its Western allies to swiftly and dramatically increase military aid and supplies to Ukraine to help the Ukrainian armed forces credibly threaten to take back Crimea, which Russian forces seized in 2014. He lays out a Ukrainian military campaign--armed and funded by the United States and its NATO allies--that he claims will cause Russian President Vladimir Putin to negotiate a Russian withdrawal from Crimea and reduce the risk of a wider war. Vindman is reminiscent of those European statesmen and generals before and during World War I who thought that mobilizing for war would somehow prevent it and, if not, would result in a swift victory.

Writing on the Foreign Affairs website, Vindman notes that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy made a video appeal at the meeting of the World Economic Forum, saying: “Crimea is our land, our territory,” and requesting Western nations to “give us your weapons” so that Ukraine can retake “what is ours.” In his article, Vindman urges Washington and NATO to “give Ukraine the weapons and assistance it needs to win quickly and decisively in all occupied territories north of Crimea--and to credibly threaten to take the peninsula militarily.” Vindman suggests that a credible threat to militarily retake Crimea will be sufficient to bring Putin to the negotiating table and end the war on terms favorable to Ukraine.

Vindman has been one of the most vociferous war hawks when it comes to U.S. involvement in the Russia-Ukraine War. Politico reports that Vindman is organizing a group of experienced American military contractors “who would travel to Ukraine and embed themselves with small units near the front lines” and provide Ukrainian forces with “military logistics support.” Back in the summer of 2022, Vindman traveled to Ukraine to help the country wage successful war against Russia. He called the Ukraine war “the most important geopolitical event of the last 20 years & maybe the next 20 years.”

And Vindman has not shied away from partisan politics in his “geopolitical” analysis. He has blamed former President Trump, Trump’s Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, the Republican Party, and Fox News for “emboldening Russia to invade Ukraine,” even though Russia’s invasions of Ukraine occurred during the Obama and Biden administrations. “There is blood on the Republican Party’s hands,” Vindman said. “They were partially responsible for what is happening in Ukraine.”

Vindman claims that if the U.S. and NATO continue to provide military assistance to Ukraine incrementally instead of giving Ukraine everything it needs now, the risk of widening the war and embroiling NATO in the conflict will increase. But, he claims, with swift and decisive Western military support, including hundreds of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, advanced fighter aircraft, long and short-range missiles, and thousands of rocket systems, Ukraine can credibly threaten to retake Crimea, which he claims will force Putin to negotiate, withdraw from Crimea, and will supposedly reduce the risks of a wider war.

Vindman even lays out a tactical strategy that includes tying down Russian forces in the Luhansk, Kherson, and northern Donetsk regions, severing Russia’s land route to Ukraine by pushing through to the Sea of Azov, and interfering with Russia’s military resupply route by destroying the Kerch Strait Bridge that connects Russia to the Crimea. This would be followed by “weeks of strikes” on Russian armed forces, including air bases, naval installations, transportation nodes, and command and control centers. Then Ukraine would launch “land and amphibious attacks to gain a foothold in Crimea,” and move on to seize Russia’s naval installation at Sevastopol, the capital of Simferopol, Feodosiya, and Kerch. Unless, that is, the Clausewitzian “friction” of war intervenes, as it usually does.

There are a lot of assumptions underlying Vindman’s plan. One is his claim that “Western officials are less worried about Russian nuclear saber rattling than they once were.” He does not identify who those officials are or why they are allegedly less worried about nuclear escalation. Another assumption is that a dramatic increase in Western military supplies--giving Ukraine everything it needs to defeat Russia--is less dangerous than what he calls “incremental escalation.” And Vindman assures us that “Putin has no interest in a fight with NATO.” Presumably, that includes a NATO that supplies Ukraine with everything it needs to defeat Russia.

Perhaps Vindman’s most questionable assumption--which is not mentioned in the Foreign Affairs article, but that he voiced after his trip to Ukraine in the summer of 2022--is that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is “the most important geopolitical event of the last 20 years.” Others would argue that China’s rise--economically and militarily--and its expanded influence throughout Eurasia and beyond is a more important geopolitical event, especially when it is coupled with the growing strategic partnership between China and Russia. In the past, American statesmen recognized the importance of maintaining the geopolitical pluralism of Eurasia. It is why we sided with Stalin against Hitler. It is why we sided with Mao against the Soviet regime. But all the Vindman approach does is to push Russia even closer to China. And as tensions increase in the western Pacific over Taiwan, Vindman’s counsel may get us into a two-front war that nobody should want.

If Vindman is so dead set on the US getting further into Ukraine, I’d posit that he should lead from the front.

Fuck those two.

The US Navy posted pictures of themselves planting "mock explosives" in the Baltic Sea where the pipelines would explode three months later.

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Off...ting-new-technology/

But don't worry, it was a "training exercise."



https://twitter.com/KanekoaThe.../1623404150968172545

This article by Seymour Hersh didn't get much attention in the MSM yesterday but it's a pretty interesting story about Baltops and a bit concerning if it's even half true.
Also surprising to me that Angela Merkel has gone mostly unnoticed as she sucked up the the Russians so much.

https://seymourhersh.substack....-out-the-nord-stream

quote:

Originally posted by chellim1:
The US Navy posted pictures of themselves planting "mock explosives" in the Baltic Sea where the pipelines would explode three months later.
...

Or BALTOPS is an annual NATO naval exercise going back decades. And part of the exercise is helping clear the seabed of mines and UXO from WW2.

And Russia has NEVER messed with their pipelines to exert political pressure on Europe.

quote:

Is that idiot Biden gonna get us in a war with Russia or China?

He’s doing his damndest, and idiot shitheads like Vindman apparently have his ear. Biden has reversed course and escalated again and again. Others think that because Putin and Russian forces haven’t gone nuclear so far, he won’t go nuclear. The threat has never been higher and we have a belligerent, senile fool for a President..

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
This article by Seymour Hersh didn't get much attention in the MSM yesterday but it's a pretty interesting story about Baltops and a bit concerning if it's even half true.
Also surprising to me that Angela Merkel has gone mostly unnoticed as she sucked up the the Russians so much.

https://seymourhersh.substack....-out-the-nord-stream

The half I could believe is that plans like that were made at the time and for the reasons given. There are however two major red flags with the article. First, it depends upon a single anonymous source, which violates any journalistic standard. It also fails to give a compelling motivation why despite the noted potentially huge repercussions within NATO if found out, this would have been set in motion in June, when Germany had already pulled the plug on Nord Stream 2 right after the Russian invasion in February, and was supplying self-propelled howitzers and anti-air gun systems to Ukraine; and why the trigger would have been pulled three months later still, when Russia itself had shut down Nord Stream 1, too, but Germany was still the third-biggest donor to Ukraine overall with no signs of budging.

More circumstantially, it also includes bits like BALTOPS and American overflights, which were claimed as evidence for US involvement early on, all too conveniently. At one point the story was that a US Navy aircraft dropped a torpedo; now it's a Norwegian aircraft dropping a sonobuoy to trigger the charges. That seems awfully like assigning significance to the guy with the umbrella at JFK's motorcade because he was there. The Norway part in general just sounds off, described with weird hyperbole. So the Norwegian government are these ultra-loyal pro-Americans who "hate Russia", and also come up with BALTOPS as a cover which the Americans apparently didn't think of. Uh, didn't you mean to write "Poland", which, you know, unlike Norway actually is a country on the Baltic Sea? To which the article seems to reply, "Yeah, but do you know who else is a Norwegian? The NATO secretary general. Coincidence? I think not!"

Neither does it give an answer to why one of the four lines was left untouched, but another blown up twice in rather distant places, which has had people wondering since the start. Not so much as an "our divers were disturbed, had to move to an alternate location, and picked the wrong line". Did Hersh forget to ask? He seems a bit like the techno-thriller authors who get too big to be reined in by editors, or in this case, basics like independent confirmation - the technical details are still impeccable, but the plot is personal bias and stereotypes running amok with holes you could drive a ballistic missile submarine through. I mean Tom Clancy having Japan attack the US because, cars level.

Finally, while it might be chance, this comes during a notable spike of Russian propaganda activity ahead of a possible spring offensive in Ukraine. And with its implications of Norway and to a lesser degree Denmark and Sweden, it seems specifically designed to throw the biggest possible bomb into the Western camp. All of which is why I'm not prepared to work myself into an outrage about the dastardly Americans just yet.

quote:

Originally posted by BansheeOne:
That seems awfully like assigning significance to the guy with the umbrella at JFK's motorcade because he was there.

There is a certain air of desperation about the story - which I'm sure encourages Putin's opponents no end.

Any "article" that makes it sound like the prez has balls automatically draws my suspicion.

Of all the journos in the world, why am I not surprised that someone like Seymour Hersh, would be the one breaking this news? Is Woodward next? Where's Bernstein? Hersh hasn't been relevant for decades and this is simply another attempt for him to remain in the public eye, he tried with Abu Ghraib and with killing Bin Laden, lots of holes but, full of sensationalism. The story has too many holes, and while plausible it's relying on a 'single anonymous source'.

quote:

The U.S. Navy’s Diving and Salvage Center can be found in a location as obscure as its name—down what was once a country lane in rural Panama City, a now-booming resort city in the southwestern panhandle of Florida, 70 miles south of the Alabama border. The center’s complex is as nondescript as its location—a drab concrete post-World War II structure that has the look of a vocational high school on the west side of Chicago.

That describes about 80% of military bases and locations around the country. For the record that building faces the main boulevard, across a cyclone fence and on the wall of the building facing the road, in big enough letters, it announces whose building it is...nondescript my ass For the record, the Naval Support Activity at Panama City isn't some obscure location, its one of the largest dive facilities in the world, it's where both the Marines and the USAF's PJ's do their dive training, just about anything dive related for the Navy is based out of there, which includes EOD, experimental, anything salvage training & development.

Basically the only verifiable information in that article which probably can't be found by using Google is the retired MIT professor explaining how you would want to trigger charges lying in wait underwater for a prolonged period. Otherwise I could have written that story without leaving my desk, including the idea of an accoustic trigger; as a kid I read the French "Langelot" spy series, where the plot of one installment was a blackmail scheme with a nuclear bomb floating offshore which could be triggered or disarmed with a sequence of three exact tunes, ideally played on a pitch pipe, albeit transmitted by radio.

As noted, other parts have been floating around conspiracy and propaganda sites ever since the event. The story of the P-8 was actually linked here months ago, though back then it was a US Navy aircraft launching an airborne torpedo. A notable German pro-Russian blogger also just stated that after the attacks he was sent an anonymous e-mail by an anonymous source claiming he served on a ship during BALTOPS 22 when a crew of non-military-looking American divers using the "secret" Mk29 mixed gas rebreather system (which can be found on the official YouTube channel of the Office of Naval Research, explained by an expert from, you guess it, the Panama City diving center) were helicoptered in and out for doing some lengthy underwater work in the "wrong" position. Which is suspiciously close to what Hersh's anonymous source "with direct knowledge of the operation" says; except you could never land a helicopter on the Norwegian 375-ton Alta-class minesweeper mentioned.

Given that Norway currently has only three each Altas and P-8 operational (an additional two of the former are decommissioned, and two of the latter based in the US for crew training), it might actually be worth checking out where each of those were at the times given; there's still an outside chance that it's all true. But to me it sure looks like one or several of the same "anonymous sources" shopped around for a gullible publisher of their stories, modifying them until they hit pay dirt. Or maybe, given his recent track record of claiming the use of chemical weapons in Syria were false flag attacks and the nerve agent hit on the Skripals in the UK were more likely related to organized crime than retribution for a Russian intelligence defector, maybe Hersh thought "I need some fresh PR and money - let's see, what's the most controversial story I can come up with?"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BansheeOne,