Shot this tonight for the first time. Holy hell is it hard. My accuracy score was 160 something, but the par times for each stage are an absolute bitch and I, of course, failed.

So, if you want a way to entertain yourself next time you're at the range, behold the FAM TPC:

https://www.shootingillustrate...est-your-ccw-skills/

Edit: Sorry, 150 is max score for accuracy, 130 is passing. I scored enough to pass the accuracy, but missed the par times.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PrinceAliFabulousHe,

My understanding of this course is that it has not been used for many years. It is indeed very challenging, particularly when shot on the proper QIT target and harder still when shot with a 229 in .357 Sig (probably the right gun).

I've failed it a lot more than I've passed it and agree that some of the times can be tough. I personally find the accuracy standard to be the real mother of it.

You should check your score, though...it's only a 150 point course (30 x 5)

yeah... I'm not passing that...

i was thinking it was do-able until the speed reloads

the marksmanship part is do-able though -- but that's some pretty fast shooting under time constraints

thanks for posting that link

-----------------------------

According to the information I had at the time the original Air Marshal course was somewhat different than what was linked. I modified that course a bit for my own purposes (couldn’t do the 180 degree thing on my range), and used that as my standard drill for several years. I strived to pass far more often than I passed, but I fired a lot of 357 SIG ammunition with my P229 doing it.

There was an Air Marshal in my instructor class in 2002 and I asked him about the official course. He said it had been dropped because “no one could pass it.” Much later I was in an LE instructor conference competition that included a group of Air Marshals. They were very good.

Not sure about them dropping it, talked to a good friend a month ago and he was pissed that he shot a 280, he normally gets 290.

They shoot the course monthly

Thought FAM were issued P239 in 357Sig?

Everything I ever heard was that the FAMs were issued P229s in 357 SIG. That was the pistol being used by the Air Marshal in my class. One thing that I remember clearly was that they did not have 357 SIG dummy rounds for him to use in the instruction the first day. Although I used a P220 for the course because that was the issued pistol for my agency, I also owned a 357 P229 at the time and was therefore aware of the gun and cartridge.

They obviously shoot some sort of course for training and qualifications, but I have also heard more than once that it is not the original one that was at least similar to what was linked. But my information is quite old, and perhaps something like the original course was resurrected later.
It would be interesting to know for certain what it is now.

Hmmm... In younger days, I might have passed it. Maybe. That first stage from concealment is tough.

I'd need a lot of practice hours to pass that course. Free ammo would make it easier to qualify

There was a question about what the TPC consisted of. Here is the exact course, I hope the formatting came through.
Not included are all the specific guidelines.

The course was originally shot with the Sig 228. Upon adoption of the 229 in 357 Sig around 1999, the course continued on without change.
The course was discontinued around March of 2002 after two or three classes of post 9-11 Air Marshals. It was determined that it it was too difficult for the normal recruit to pass consistently.

No stage of the course was shot from concealment. Although there were informal versions of the TPC (such as scoring the inner bottle of the QIT target only or lowering the times to Bullins original standards), the below standards were the only official standards. One small wrinkle of scoring was that if the bullet hole touched the line inside or out, the hit was scored to the lower score (five points inside the bottle , two points outside the bottle but on the target). The passing score was 135.

The course was developed from and modeled after the Marine Corps High Risk Program (HRP); it was introduced to the FAMs by Tom Bullins (Trigger Time Valley) then of the Fort Bragg area. 1992 is the correct year of the introduction of the course to the FAMS. The original standards as taught by Bullins had to be modified after a few months (example Stage 1 raised from 1.5 to 1.65, Stage 5 from 1.5 to 1.65, Stage 7 reduced from 4.5 to 4.0) after the formal adoption. The only thing that changed during its lifespan was the number attempts allowed to pass the course at the end of basic training. Originally two chances in one day was the standard. If the student failed to pass they were dropped from training. In 1998, the chances allowed became four.

DRILL POSITION TIME TOTAL ROUNDS

One round Holster 1.65 seconds 2
(twice) total 3.30

Double Tap Ready 1.35 4
(twice) total 2.70

Rhythm; Ready 3.00 6
Fire 6 rounds (no more than .06
At one target between the sum
of the splits)

One shot, Ready 3.25 4
speed reload, total 6.50
one shot (twice)

One round each Ready 1.65 4
at 2 targets, Total 3.30
3 yards apart
(twice)

180 degree pivot, Holster 3.50 6
fire 1 round at total 7.00
3 targets. (twice)
turn left then right

One round, slide Ready 4.00 4
Locks back, drop total 8.00 __________
To knee, reload, 30
1 round kneeling
(twice)

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
My understanding of this course is that it has not been used for many years. It is indeed very challenging, particularly when shot on the proper QIT target and harder still when shot with a 229 in .357 Sig (probably the right gun).

I've failed it a lot more than I've passed it and agree that some of the times can be tough. I personally find the accuracy standard to be the real mother of it.

You should check your score, though...it's only a 150 point course (30 x 5)

Oh, you're right. My bad. 130 is passing, 150 is perfect. I scored enough to pass the marksmanship part, but missed all the par times.

It's understandably tough.
A missed shot goes through the side of a pressurized plane or can hit passengers in a packed plane (less packed right now).
They have a need for the most precise standards of any law enforcement organization.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
yeah... I'm not passing that...

i was thinking it was do-able until the speed reloads

the marksmanship part is do-able though -- but that's some pretty fast shooting under time constraints

thanks for posting that link

-----------------------------

The speed reload killed me. My shirt got hung up on the mag carrier and that was that.

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:
Thought FAM were issued P239 in 357Sig?

They were authorized to carry the P239, I believe they still can on off duty.

quote:

Originally posted by PrinceAliFabulousHe:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
My understanding of this course is that it has not been used for many years. It is indeed very challenging, particularly when shot on the proper QIT target and harder still when shot with a 229 in .357 Sig (probably the right gun).

I've failed it a lot more than I've passed it and agree that some of the times can be tough. I personally find the accuracy standard to be the real mother of it.

You should check your score, though...it's only a 150 point course (30 x 5)

Oh, you're right. My bad. 130 is passing, 150 is perfect. I scored enough to pass the marksmanship part, but missed all the par times.

I should have looked at the OPs link, I thought he was talking about the current qual.

My bad

Thanks, 0658, for all that and for the course description (which is what I remember). As I mentioned it included a stage with targets across a 180° spread, and if it’s hard enough for most people to find someplace where they can shoot some of the other stages, finding a range that permitted that one would be impossible except for a very small minority.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
A missed shot goes through the side of a pressurized plane

Which by itself isn't a big deal. "Explosive decompression" of an airplane cabin from a bullet hole (or even several bullet holes) is a common trope in fiction, but isn't actually realistic.

From https://www.airspacemag.com/ne...-pressure-142253641/

quote:

Pilot and author David Lombardo writes in his book Advanced Aircraft Systems: “Hollywood has fostered an image of rapid cabin depressurization that has come to be known as explosive decompression. [Someone] shoots a hole into the side of an aircraft and it results in total loss of cabin pressure with paper, food trays, and baggage flying everywhere...”

“Reality simply does not work that way,” explains Lombardo. “A bullet hole in a cabin wall would have no perceived effect on cabin pressure…. A bullet hole is far smaller than the opening of the outflow valve [through which cabin air escapes during routine depressurization]. In fact, such a hole would account for less air leakage than what is normally lost around door and window seals.”

This myth was also tested, and disproven, twice on two different episodes of the Mythbusters TV show.

And even if you managed to poke so many bullet holes in the cabin that the cabin fully depressurized, at an altitude of 30,000 feet the passengers and crew would still have about a minute to access supplementary oxygen before losing consciousness.

We shot it monthly at Sig Academy years ago when the Sig LE League was being operated by one of their instructors and the firearm's instructor for the Boston FAM office. After their normal monthly training session Sig allowed up to have four hours shooting all types of scenarios and many times that course.

The FAM instructor as a former SF and Delta member who was the best I've seen. He did it just to provide training at no cost to any LE interested in attending. Sig even provided the ammo.

Best part was during the winter months the last two hours of the session would be in almost total darkness. Shooting under those conditions was the first time I found that turning the lights off indoors is vastly different than outdoors in the dark.


But as stated , the course was changed over the years and unfortunately the leader transferred to the DC area. While we still continue with the league we no longer have the experiences of his knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by rscalzo:
We shot it monthly at Sig Academy years ago when the Sig LE League was being operated by one of their instructors and the firearm's instructor for the Boston FAM office. After their normal monthly training session Sig allowed up to have four hours shooting all types of scenarios and many times that course.

The FAM instructor as a former SF and Delta member who was the best I've seen. He did it just to provide training at no cost to any LE interested in attending. Sig even provided the ammo.

Best part was during the winter months the last two hours of the session would be in almost total darkness. Shooting under those conditions was the first time I found that turning the lights off indoors is vastly different than outdoors in the dark.


But as stated , the course was changed over the years and unfortunately the leader transferred to the DC area. While we still continue with the league we no longer have the experiences of his knowledge.

I'm hoping we do it again in a few weeks. The instructor was pretty up front telling me I could pass with more practice. Another shooter in the class missed passing by .4 seconds and 15 accuracy points, which was impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
A missed shot goes through the side of a pressurized plane


Which by itself isn't a big deal. "Explosive decompression" of an airplane cabin from a bullet hole (or even several bullet holes) is a common trope in fiction, but isn't actually realistic.

I wasn't trying to imply that a shot through the side would necessarily cause catastrophic failure. Just that the need for some exceptional shooting skills are needed in that environment more than almost any other, for a variety of reasons.
Another is that in a real deal aircraft security emergency, unlike on the ground, waiting for backup to arrive isn't an option. Poorly placed shots and misses are more likely to have terrible consequences.
The exceptional skill requirements for air marshals are there for good reason.