quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
No. It is supply and demand PLUS greed in this case. I do not see surcharges of eggs or bacon or other foodstuffs. The car business is different.

A little of all three, dealers are not getting supplied like before, and, as such they are selling allocations prior to delivery.

The model may have very well changed for automobile sales, having full lots of cars
being sold under MSRP and rebates, low interest or zero interest loans will be few and far between.

Factories want out of the rebate game, they also want out of the long term costs of unionized workforces that require LTB programs which cost more than the cars they make.

The problem isn't really that factories don't want to sell you direct online, it's state laws for franchises that don't allow Tesla, GM, Toyota et al to sell without a franchised dealer. TX, CA, FL, NY every state has these laws.

Musk wanted around them, but the Dealer lobby is massive, more businesses, employees, taxes paid,

If you want factory direct ordering, then call your local congress critter in your state and start a lobby.

Those "add ons" are how dealers are getting around factory rules on mark ups, the factory knows it's problematic not because they give a darn if someone pays $5K over on a Tahoe, but that the people buying cars today at MSRP plus
are going to be way under water in 4 years

Which means, less new car sales when the dealer has to figure out how to finance you new Toyota 4wd Taco plus $10K for the debt you have in negative equity.

The dealer said $12,000 for the truck.

I brought a cashier's check for $12,000 and when they tried to negotiate, I showed them the check with the dealer's name on it.

Off to do the paperwork and I was out the door in 15 minutes.

That was the only time I bought anything from a dealer so far.

quote:

Originally posted by sigspecops:
So, I looked at a Honda Pilot this weekend. Honda dealers in my area have always been bad about dealer add-ons but now it's absolutely insane.
They had $5k worth of dealer installed nonsense.
Here's some highlights for your entertainment.
Wheel Locks - $300
Pin Strip - $300
Infotainment Protective Glass Screen - $200
Floor Mats -$400
Cargo Mat - $400
Nitrogen (in tires) - $300
Window Tint-$600
Lo Jack - $1,50
And several other things adding up to $5k of crap with outrageous markups.
I told the salesperson to make me an offer without any add ons.
He said the price was firm and that most dealers everywhere are adding a $5k upcharge to their popular inventon.
And he's right, every mid sized suv I found had at least $4k added to the msrp and no one will discount it.
So I'll just wait it out. Maybe some day prices will come back down or maybe not.

They are just trying to soften the blow by listing these as "add-ons." You know that screen protector cost them about $8 and ten minutes of labor. It is just a mark-up because of low supply. I'd be more irritated that they just don't call it a mark-up. We're not stupid.

Anyway, I prefer 78% nitrogen in my tires.

But that is the current market. Supply is low, and demand is returning to normal. So the price goes up. That is basic microeconomics.

Absolutely - wait it out.

quote:

hey are just trying to soften the blow by listing these as "add-ons."

Some of it is getting around restrictions on allocations by factories who are coming down on dealers who use bump stickers.

No restriction on adding things and charging for them though, so you can add options and charge enough to get the $5K market value price.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
No. It is supply and demand PLUS greed in this case.
I do not see surcharges of eggs or bacon or other foodstuffs.
The car business is different.

Yes it is a different business but as Gordon Gecko said "Greed is Good".
Actually it isn't greed as you perceive it ~ it is survival and an adjustment based on the reasons I previously mentioned.
We may not like it now but are we going to cry when the business cycle swings the other way?

smchulz is right. It is isn't biblical-style greed. It is economics, it is Adam Smith, invisible hand stuff. As Tony Soprano would have said, "Nothing personal, only business."

Sellers are in it to maximize their profit. Buyers are in it to minimize their cost. That is the system most of us claim to like - free market capitalism.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

hey are just trying to soften the blow by listing these as "add-ons."

Some of it is getting around restrictions on allocations by factories who are coming down on dealers who use bump stickers.

No restriction on adding things and charging for them though, so you can add options and charge enough to get the $5K market value price.

I get it. What a Byzantine sales system there is between the manufacturers and the dealers. In the end, it is a way for the dealers to mark the price up to what people will pay.

All these are a form of financing. Cars have become so expensive that the vast majority can't afford to pay cash for them. Leasing has been a huge factor for, what?, thirty years now.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Note that Saturn failed.

GM dumped Saturn, but it wasn't because of its one-price, no-haggle policy.


Risking thread drift, but following the "pay more if you want to" theory and offering something else to get fired up about, there's this article from The Drive, claiming GM expects car buyers to pay an extra $135 monthly for subscriptions.

Subscriptions are where we're headed unfortunately. Corporate America wants it and young people will jump all over it for a number of reasons. We are moving toward a Rent/Lease/Subscription based economy.

What exactly are subscription services for cars?
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
What exactly are subscription services for cars?
Thanks

Everything from plans where you "subscribe" to a particular car brand/model and rotate in and out of cars to options where you basically just "subscribe" to a car for use as needed. In old-man parlance the first is just a short/flexible lease and the latter a rental. I think Volvo has toyed with the former model, and I'd expect Tesla and others to as well once they have some excess capacity.

Also now an option is subscription options/features. For example you want heated seats in that BMW, you pay an extra $xx/month and they are activated remotely. This supposedly realizes some net savings between the ease of subscription coupled with production cars with all/most features built in and just turn on/off as subscribed.

Thank you for the explanation. It seems all the subscriptions I have are very difficult to cancell. I still remember Columbia records. The first album was free and then it cost big money for the rest. They kept sending the records even if you did not want them.

I will go with buying cars outright if still possible.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
All these are a form of financing. Cars have become so expensive that the vast majority can't afford to pay cash for them. Leasing has been a huge factor for, what?, thirty years now.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Note that Saturn failed.

GM dumped Saturn, but it wasn't because of its one-price, no-haggle policy.


Risking thread drift, but following the "pay more if you want to" theory and offering something else to get fired up about, there's this article from The Drive, claiming GM expects car buyers to pay an extra $135 monthly for subscriptions.

Subscriptions are where we're headed unfortunately. Corporate America wants it and young people will jump all over it for a number of reasons. We are moving toward a Rent/Lease/Subscription based economy.

It's one thing to have the option to Rent/Lease/subscribe. It's another when it is your only option.
Those that care about owning a new vehicle in the coming years better start paying attention.

Subscription services are already here for smartphones. AT&T keeps pushing this "service" where you pay monthly for a phone and get to upgrade every two years, but you end up never actually owning it.

You're basically renting it.

quote:

Subscription services are already here for smartphones. AT&T keeps pushing this "service" where you pay monthly for a phone and get to upgrade every two years, but you end up never actually owning it.

You're basically renting it.

Seems as if some are taking a lesson out of the government playbook concerning property taxes.

Think of how much better things will be when we no longer have to burden ourselves with ever owning anything. No need for assets of any type. We can simply rent everything. Maybe we can simply get to a point where we provide our labor for everything we need in life. We won't even need money then! The government can maintain some sort of social credit system instead.

Bonus for eliminating all local sources and moving to an online system.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Subscription services are already here for smartphones. AT&T keeps pushing this "service" where you pay monthly for a phone and get to upgrade every two years, but you end up never actually owning it.

You're basically renting it.

The trend is also quickly ramping up for Single family homes as well. Investors are paying thousands over market value and gobbling them up.

"Residential real estate acquired by companies or institutions soared to 90,215 homes in the third quarter of 2021, as investors, both large and small, accounted for 18% of single-family home sales. That’s up 80.2% from the year prior, according to the online real estate firm Redfin. Nearly three-quarters of residential purchases by investors were single-family homes, while multifamily homes—a market in which investors have been significant players for decades—accounted for just a quarter of sales."

https://www.toptal.com/finance...-single-family-homes

Sorry for the thread drift, ZSMICHAEL.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

quote:

Subscription services are already here for smartphones. AT&T keeps pushing this "service" where you pay monthly for a phone and get to upgrade every two years, but you end up never actually owning it.

You're basically renting it.

Seems as if some are taking a lesson out of the government playbook concerning property taxes.

Think of how much better things will be when we no longer have to burden ourselves with ever owning anything. No need for assets of any type. We can simply rent everything. Maybe we can simply get to a point where we provide our labor for everything we need in life. We won't even need money then! The government can maintain some sort of social credit system instead.

Bonus for eliminating all local sources and moving to an online system.

You'll own nothing and be happy according to the WEF.

Maybe it will extend to renting people.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
Maybe it will extend to renting people.

Put me down for a week of Jennifer Lawrence.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

I prefer 78% nitrogen in my tires.

The charge for that is $234.00

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
Maybe it will extend to renting people.

Put me down for a week of Jennifer Lawrence.

Make sure you read the TOS, probably got a lot of restrictions on use and maintenance

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
Maybe it will extend to renting people.

Put me down for a week of Jennifer Lawrence.

Make sure you read the TOS, probably got a lot of restrictions on use and maintenance

jhe888,

You may want to look for words like "Inflatable" and "runs flat" in the TOS agreement.