This one is probably complicated and deserving of an actual consult with an attorney. However, I'm just interested in the 10,000 foot view.

Two parcels of property that share a property line. One is a small subdivision with an HOA, the other a farm field.

HOA installs a private water main to feed houses in subdivision, probably over 20 years ago.

Farm field is sold to local school district who now begins building new school. Retaining wall is being built down the property line on the school's side. Company building wall trenches through water line on school's property having no idea it's there. Wall is stopped, line is repaired so that homes have water.

School's architect sends demand letter to HOA demanding that the water line be removed, or that homeowners will be responsible for their cost to move it, construction delays, etc.

General questions:

Here in Missouri, and we have adverse possession laws. Would a private water line installed across a property line have the potential to create an easement or transfer property rights to HOA?

The architect is the project manager, but owns nothing. Does their demand letter carry any weight?

Not an attorney and not an expert. But, was a permit ever pulled for the water line? Speak to the towns building department. I would think after 20 years, the water line is there to stay. But state laws are funny. So consult a local RE attorney.

Like he said . Consult an Attorney and let him research the laws that are relevant to YOUR area . Anything you get here will be pure speculation .

quote:

Anything you get here will be pure speculation .

That's all I want. Not my property, not my fight. However, it involves my local school district which I watch like a hawk, and has a history of having no idea what's going on. I suspect no attorney was consulted prior to the architect sending the letter.

Speculation makes great board meetings.

Each state has a statute that refers to adverse possession. Laws will vary by state. In Wisconsin it is very difficult to claim property as yours when all you have done is placed a pipe under the property. There are lots of things that must be proven first to claim property as yours.

If it were easy, I would start placing pipes everywhere I could. My complete uneducated guess would be that maybe you could work out a deal with the school system to relocate your waterline in a newly created easement around the boundary of their property at no cost to them. Last I checked attorney fees were steep and the clock spins fast. Guessing the school system has much deeper pockets than your subdivision association.

I personally feel that if you did something wrong you should own up to it and take care of fixing the wrong. Too damn many people in this world looking for something for nothing.

The developer who installed the waterline and created your subdivision should boot the bill or you, the individual owners could sue him for not providing water perhaps. I am not an attorney but I did work for a municipality for 25 years in the engineering department. I have seen some crazy stuff go on over the years. Good luck to you. A call to an attorney should be your next step.

When the subdivision put in the waterline, there should have been an agreement w whoever owned the field.

In our area, that agreement would have been documented in the plat that defined the boundaries of the field. This plat would be on file with the local clerk of the court.

I think sdy is right. There should be an easement granted for it which should be on file. If not it was either a mistake or trespass.
I think the school district can demand that it be moved. Of course they could negotiate an easement now to leave it there.

It doesn’t sound like an adverse possession case. It wasn’t open and notorious.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
When the subdivision put in the waterline, there should have been an agreement w whoever owned the field.

In our area, that agreement would have been documented in the plat that defined the boundaries of the field. This plat would be on file with the local clerk of the court.

My speculation is that the contractor putting in the waterline where he did either out of ignorance because the boundary wasn’t clearly staked or deliberately because it was easier for him. I suspect that there was no discussion or agreement with the field owner.

Stuff like that happens all the time.

Very general responses to you’re general questions:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by a1abdj:

Here in Missouri, and we have adverse possession laws. Would a private water line installed across a property line have the potential to create an easement or transfer property rights to HOA?[/QUOTE.]

Almost definitely not. Adverse possession has to be “open and notorious,” meaning it has to be clear that someone is using your property.



[QUOTE] The architect is the project manager, but owns nothing. Does their demand letter carry any weight?[/QUOTE.]

Anyone can write a demand letter - the only thing that gives it weight is the law behind it.

Methinks the subdivision owner will have to move the line or buy an easement, but they probably don’t have the legal right to keep their water line on someone else’s property. Real estate law varies by state and while I am a lawyer I am not a Missouri lawyer, so YMMV.

It is as brought to my attention that the person who built the subdivision and the person who used to own the school property were good friends, and likely that they either didn’t care about the exact location of the property line or knew about it and didn’t care at the time.

This line would predate the schools ownership of the property by a few decades.

There is no longer a developer or subdivision owner. It is now just the individual home owners and some form of HOA.

Let me start by saying, I am not a lawyer and that I echo the recommendations above that you will want a good one involved.

quote:

water line on school's property

This is the heart of the problem. It should not have gone on/through property not part of the HOA.

Owner of the property (school district, now) has every right to want that removed, not at their expense. HOA, their insurer, and whoever put in the water line can wrangle about who foots the bill to fix it. Or, see if a deal could be done with the school district to get permission/easement to leave it as it is. Maybe someone in the HOA knows someone in the school district and/or the school board to open negotiations?

Sounds to me like the actual location of the waterline is unknown. Is part of it on school property? Most of it? Did they even attempt to keep it on the HOA side?

I don't see an adverse claim here as the subdivision was well aware of the property line. This needs to be adjudicated. Any good judge is gonna look for a solution that both sides can live with. That would be an easement in my opinion. But there are issues here.

The problem there is that this is a school district and they want to isolate the school with a perimeter border wall. Can't fault them for that but an easement might be out as they cannot maintain a water line with a big heavy wall sitting on top of it.

The more I think about it, the more complicated it gets...at least in my mind. I don't see how the homeowners would have any recourse with their title companies, even with extended coverage that any lender would require. The original developer would bear responsibility but it's been 20 years. They could be long gone or even dead by now. The school district, it seems, will stand their ground and yeah, they have deep pockets.

This is interesting as hell to me and I hope the OP will update us from time to time.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:

The architect is the project manager, but owns nothing. Does their demand letter carry any weight?

I’ve only worked on the contractor side of school construction but this strikes me as a very odd letter for an architect to write. I’m not an architect or lawyer but I would think such a demand would come from the school’s lawyer. My money is on the architect missed this waterline during their design and is now trying to save face or try and buffalo the HOA into paying for the repair costs as the school told them that they, the architects, should have known it was there and the school isn’t going to pay for their mistake.

I keep getting additional information as I get responses to my inquiries with homeowners.

Only a portion of the line is in school property, but it feeds the entire small subdivision. We are talking private gravel road in a rural area.

Water plant used to be owned by the city, but they sold it to a company several years back. They have “municipal” water. Each home has a meter on their individual property, the main is across the road which runs along the property line, and they pay their water bill to this company.

The demand letter gives them until this Thursday to move the main or says they’ll be responsible for the cost of construction delays. Our school district is run by small town jerkoffs. There’ll be no joy there.

quote:

Originally posted by CEShooter:
My money is on the architect missed this waterline during their design and is now trying to save face or try and buffalo the HOA into paying for the repair costs as the school told them that they, the architects, should have known it was there and the school isn’t going to pay for their mistake.

Yeah, it is unusual for an architect to write a letter like that but I doubt it would carry any less weight. Why do you think the architect should have known where the line is? There is nothing of record that discloses it.

Sounds like possibly not enough research as to easements prior to the school board purchasing property.....Did the school board apply and get granted a permit for the boundry fence and if so who was responsible for this researching the records....... Sounds like this is going to turn into a legal battle because of the time frame listed by OP as this Thursday.... And sounds like the school board as well as the architech and construction company is trying to bully the HOA residents... wish them luck.......... drill sgt.

Of course it depends on Missouri law, but it’s unlikely that an easement was created by a buried water line. It sounds like the water line isn’t crossing the school property by much, but is just on the wrong side of the line in places. Seems it was intended to be run parallel to the property line, but was done without a survey or good boundary markings.

What should happen is that the HOA has to pay to relocate the line. But there is a saying that “hard cases make bad law”, and there’s no telling how a sympathetic judge could rule.

Keep us posted.

I am not a lawyer and you will need one.

In every project I have done, there is no private waterline outside the subdivision.

You pay a fee and often the cost of constructing all utilities but once installed everything between the water meter and the water company is their property and the water company's responsibility.

Laws may be different where you are.

A broken 6" main can waste 33,000 gallons an hour. With no meter attached, the water company is on the hook.

Some lawyer is going to make some money.

Title issues,
Easement issues,
utility issues,
damage claim for the water pipe and water,
Due diligence issues on the closing attorney, title company, architect, and contractor.

Did the contractor call dig safe before digging?

If not he is in trouble, if he did and they said he was safe to dig, he is off the hook.

Let us know how this all settles out.

quote:

Originally posted by drill sgt:
Sounds like possibly not enough research as to easements prior to the school board purchasing property.....Did the school board apply and get granted a permit for the boundry fence and if so who was responsible for this researching the records....... Sounds like this is going to turn into a legal battle because of the time frame listed by OP as this Thursday.... And sounds like the school board as well as the architech and construction company is trying to bully the HOA residents... wish them luck.......... drill sgt.

Not really following drill sgt. There is no recorded easement as I guarantee you the school would have gotten an Owners policy from a title company. If a Lender is involved, they would have required an extended coverage Lender's policy which would means the title company would have done a physical inspection of the property. But a non-recorded easement for a water line would not have been detected. The school district would also have submitted their plans to the county for the building permit which probably included a perimeter fence or wall. If not, I am not sure that would have mattered if they did not included that This property would also have to have been re-zoned for a school.

I just don't see the school as the bad guy here, same for the property owners in the subdivision. That is why I find this all so interesting. Yup, this needs to litigated.

Usually any adverse possession type claim requires the use be open and obvious. Someone’s really going to have to dig into the title work to confirm no easements were ever granted. Surveys will certainly be needed. The local government should have permit and inspection records as well.