quote:

Originally posted by Oregon:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

The PCA states: "“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

So, what part of this was violated?

quote:

I'm sorry but top.men teaching DOD personnel to breech commercial hotel doors, in the middle of the night, in downtown Boston... well if that is not over the line, is standing on it.

While the end result of this training is laughably bad, what exactly is the slippery slope of training and tactics/info sharing?

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Its not like our Tier One units lack training facilities (e.g., they train at Fort Bragg, Coronado, and Dam Neck).

They certainly don't, but they train like this in non mil places all the time. I'm not sure how much taxpayer money you want to spend to replicate all of these places guys need to train.

There are enough out of business hotels and other facilities out there. There is no reason to use an active hotel.

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:


There are enough out of business hotels and other facilities out there. There is no reason to use an active hotel.

No argument there. Whoever came up with the plan and whoever was white cell were titanic boobs.

I was addressing the assertion that all of this can be replicated on DOD installations.

It happened at the Revere Hotel Boston Common which looks like a fairly nice hotel in the pictures. Seems like someone should have let him know they were coming.

They pilot tried calling the FBI hotline: "We're sorry, all of our agents are busy assaulting other callers. Your call is very important to us. If you need help, hang up and dial again."

Meanwhile, the guy hiding in room 1605 is wondering where his buddies are and who sent him the steak dinner.

quote:

Originally posted by bryan11:
We seem to have a system in the US where law enforcement at any level can have no fear of making mistakes that harm people, destroy property, and more. When such harm happens, lawyers get involved and any settlement is paid by taxpayers. The effect on the people that caused the harm seems minimal. Is this basically how it's always been in the US?

Nope. In places like Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, and New York they have been very progressive in holding police accountable for the slightest of errors. Even situations to where the police didn’t make any mistakes but the public perception is there.

The results are horrible and crime is skyrocketing because the police aren’t going to risk the taking the chance. Many that asked this same question aren’t happy with the consequences it has caused.

I suspect the next cry will be to have it both ways. The ones making the bad policies at the top level only want a nationalized police force. Many are unwittingly helping them out without regard to the actual end game.

This is fueled by the constant state of outrage that both sides of the political spectrum stay in over media reports that aren’t there to report the news. They all are there to sensationalize the story, pander to their base, provide activism, and keep people worked up. It’s funny that anyone gets worked up over any media report.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:

quote:

Originally posted by kidcop:
Putting a suspect startled non-participant in a shower is routine an abhorrent and unacceptable level of incompetency that should result in CRIMINAL charges on all those involved . It’s a confined area that restricts their movement and doesn’t have any place for a weapon or contraband to be concealed.

Fixed it for you.

This is Assault, burglary, battery, unlawful imprisonment, and more. “Ooopsie!, We made a mistake, we’re sorry, here’s a check.” doesn’t cut it.


I don’t think government officials should get a pass on what amounts to violent assault when they mistakenly hit the wrong target, especially in a “training environment” with all the time in the world to double and triple check stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Bluecobra:
Probably a good thing the guy wasn't armed. He may have come up shooting. THEN, what would have happened??

Well in that case he would be charged, lose his job, be financially ruined and likely imprisoned.

You missed the part in the Academy where they teach about mens rea, levels of intent and culpability

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bryan11:
snip

Nope. In places like Seattle, Chicago, San Francisco, and New York they have been very progressive in holding police accountable for the slightest of errors. Even situations to where the police didn’t make any mistakes but the public perception is there.

The results are horrible and crime is skyrocketing because the police aren’t going to risk the taking the chance. Many that asked this same question aren’t happy with the consequences it has caused.

I suspect the next cry will be to have it both ways. The ones making the bad policies at the top level only want a nationalized police force. Many are unwittingly helping them out without regard to the actual end game.

Portland deserves to be on your list as well. I believe Seattle is down 600 cops but the mayor says he's on it; there are a dozen and a half in the academy as we speak.

Your comment is spot on. Every time a solution is proposed it has some many zeroes in the "investment" column I'm afraid we will soon run out. And in the meantime businesses from Amazon, to the coffee shops give up the ghost.

It' not quite Mad Max level yet but they are working on it.

Having been a participant in some of these exercises (screaming bystander, dead body, hostage, etc), clearly a number of people screwed up royally. Typically there's many more times as many people involved with these exercises who are NOT apart of the 'players', making sure that the course is clearly marked, insuring areas are shut-off or, denied so that there's no opps or, errors with the general public and participants. Accompanying the 'players' is usually an umpire, judge or, a minder with knowledge of the course, with comms, to shadow the 'team' or is in close proximity to provide updates on their location. Yeah, big fuck-up. Lots of egg, pie and mud on people's faces.


As for US military doing exercises or, participating in such amongst civilian areas....happens a lot more than people know. The bases and secured facilities are for building fundamentals or, when live ammo is used. Training in the 'real world' provides the real world experience you're not going to find at closed facilities. These EX are generally at night, away from prying eyes and with the consent of local officials; just about all of them are with SOF units or, specialized units like EOD, divers, pilots, etc. Your basic tanker or, infantryman is not going to be doing these.

If the pilot in this case, or any pilot for that matter, who is a Federal Flight Deck Officer, has their duty weapon with them in a place like Boston, what are the regulations that govern the use of deadly force? I know their jurisdiction is on airplanes while on duty, but curious if there are any exceptions. Slightly off-topic, but if this were a "real" hotel room invasion, would use of their duty weapon be authorized?

quote:

Originally posted by Oregon:

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:


There are enough out of business hotels and other facilities out there. There is no reason to use an active hotel.

No argument there. Whoever came up with the plan and whoever was white cell were titanic boobs.

I was addressing the assertion that all of this can be replicated on DOD installations.

To take down a typical hotel room, there are three “spaces”: the area with the bed, the closet, and the loo.

Find some unused enlisted housing or an unoccupied room at the BOQ. Instant training facility on a DOD installation. No additional cost.

I'm wondering at if any time those involved were thinking that the guy in the hotel room was simply the best actor they've ever encountered in a training scenario.

quote:

Having been a participant in some of these exercises (screaming bystander, dead body, hostage, etc), clearly a number of people screwed up royally. Typically there's many more times as many people involved with these exercises who are NOT apart of the 'players'...Yeah, big fuck-up. Lots of egg, pie and mud on people's faces.

This.

While only on a local/regional level, I've had similar opportunities as well.
What blew me away was the fact it took 45 minutes for anyone to notice the mistake.
Where the hell was the training cadre?!

I mean, clearly they employed someone to role play the bad guy.
I could understand the entry team not knowing what he looked like, but someone knew who the bad guy was.
It's shocking it took almost an hour before someone said "Hey, that's not our bad guy!".

Hell, you think at some point the real bad guy would have texted the cadre "WTF are you guys?!"

On top of ... it's midnight, in a real-world (and apparently nice) hotel during the middle of the week.
Guess the hotel didn't give a shit either about pissing off all the other sleeping guests anywhere near this room.

This sounds more like a bunch of drunk "operators" sitting around and poof! the good idea fairy showed up vs. a legitimate training op.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:
I'm wondering at if any time those involved were thinking that the guy in the hotel room was simply the best actor they've ever encountered in a training scenario.

HA! I was thinking the same thing.

There are lots of people (a bunch on this board) that would not react well to an unmarked tac team making entry to their abode. Glad this one was just a heinous violation of civil rights and not deadly.

Compensation nope, criminal charges another nope, held responsible for the mistakes another big nope. The Feds and DoD under this current administration are answerable to none. Let's be real the Feds routinely ignore Congressional inquires, a civil suit forget it. Watch if the guy makes waves the FAA will ground him.

Famous
But
Incompetent.

quote:

Originally posted by wishfull thinker:
there are a dozen and a half in the academy as we speak.

[moment of levity] I read that entirely wrong the first time. It's not what you sent, but what I received was 12-1/2, rather than 1-1/2 dozen. [/levity]

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by Oregon:

*snip*

I was addressing the assertion that all of this can be replicated on DOD installations.

To take down a typical hotel room, there are three “spaces”: the area with the bed, the closet, and the loo.

Find some unused enlisted housing or an unoccupied room at the BOQ. Instant training facility on a DOD installation. No additional cost.

I worded that poorly. What I should have said was that it can be hard to replicate that on a DOD installation.

I'm still unclear about your assertion that this somehow runs afoul of posse comitatus.

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Originally posted by spunk639:
...Watch if the guy makes waves the FAA will ground him.

Maybe, but I expect Delta (the airline, not the bad-ass but in this case bumbling Army guys) will strongly encourage the pilot to let it go.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
I'm wondering at if any time those involved were thinking that the guy in the hotel room was simply the best actor they've ever encountered in a training scenario.

ROTFLMAO.

God, that is a hilarious thought. Imagine the conversation:

"But I'm a pilot, with Delta!"

"Son, you ain't Delta. We're Delta. And you ain't one of us."

"I mean the airline!"

"Shut the fuck up, terrorist."

"But I'm a pilot, with Delta!"

Then there is this one: https://www.foxnews.com/us/new...hoot-resident-inside


"Once on scene, officers mistakenly approached 5305 Valley View Avenue instead of 5308 Valley View Avenue," the NMSP said. "Officers knocked on the front door of 5305 Valley View Avenue and announced themselves as Farmington police officers. When there was no answer at 5305, officers asked their dispatch to call the reporting party back and have them come to the front door."

The addresses are located across the street from one another. Police said the occupants of 5305 Valley View Avenue opened the door armed and an exchange of gunfire ensued.

"Body camera footage shows as the officers backed away from 5305 Valley View Avenue, the homeowner, Robert Dotson, 52, opened the screen door armed with a handgun. At this point in the encounter, officer(s) fired at least one round from their duty weapon(s) striking Mr. Dotson," police said.