Top.Men, In Action. With USSOCOM. Domestically.

April 06, 2023, 08:56 AM

12131

quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:
Putting a suspect in a shower is routine. It’s a confined area that restricts their movement and doesn’t have any place for a weapon or contraband to be concealed.

I take it you never watched The Godfather?

April 06, 2023, 09:00 AM

Oregon

quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:

The PCA states: "“Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.”

So, what part of this was violated?

quote:

I'm sorry but top.men teaching DOD personnel to breech commercial hotel doors, in the middle of the night, in downtown Boston... well if that is not over the line, is standing on it.

While the end result of this training is laughably bad, what exactly is the slippery slope of training and tactics/info sharing?

quote:
Its not like our Tier One units lack training facilities (e.g., they train at Fort Bragg, Coronado, and Dam Neck).

They certainly don't, but they train like this in non mil places all the time. I'm not sure how much taxpayer money you want to spend to replicate all of these places guys need to train.

April 06, 2023, 09:07 AM

architect

quote:
Originally posted by cas:
"Practice like you play, play like you practice."

How would the FBI's response to this incident differ if the assaulted pilot happened to have a pistol under his pillow, and attempted to defend himself? Thank goodness he didn't have a service dog!

April 06, 2023, 09:13 AM

Oregon

quote:
The top.men led the training. That makes it law enforcement training, a form of law enforcement activity. As students, the DOD people were under top.men control, domestically.

I missed this earlier. Being trained by an entity does not equate to being under control of that entity. Especially in cases like this with the military training with civilians.

April 06, 2023, 09:16 AM

bryan11

We seem to have a system in the US where law enforcement at any level can have no fear of making mistakes that harm people, destroy property, and more. When such harm happens, lawyers get involved and any settlement is paid by taxpayers. The effect on the people that caused the harm seems minimal. Is this basically how it's always been in the US?

April 06, 2023, 09:18 AM

Sig2340

quote:
Originally posted by Oregon:
quote:
The top.men led the training. That makes it law enforcement training, a form of law enforcement activity. As students, the DOD people were under top.men control, domestically.

I missed this earlier. Being trained by an entity does not equate to being under control of that entity. Especially the military training with civilians.

Excuse me?

A student saying that in virtually any firearms-related class I've ever taken or taught would be escorted from the facility never to return.

When you are dicking around with firearms (especially if in commercial hotels in the middle of the night in Boston), someone, usually the guy in charge of the training exercise, or at least his insurance carrier, has absolute control over everyone involved.

April 06, 2023, 09:20 AM

Hildur

quote:
Originally posted by mjlennon:
What’s up with putting him in the shower? Is that part of their training?

Top men indeed…

Maybe Sonny didn't want Eddie's money touching his. Or maybe he was crowding them and breathing too much. It's also possible they didn't want the kid looking at that face and they didn't have any towels around.

April 06, 2023, 09:22 AM

Oregon

quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:

Excuse me?

A student saying that in virtually any firearms-related class I've ever taken or taught would be escorted from the facility never to return.

When you are dicking around with firearms (especially if in commercial hotels in the middle of the night in Boston), someone, usually the guy in charge of the training exercise, or at least his insurance carrier, has absolute control over everyone involved.

That's not the control we're talking about and I think you know it if you're using posse comitatus as your argument.

April 06, 2023, 09:33 AM

trapper189

It’s the FBI, so I’m certain no laws were being enforced during this training exercise.

April 06, 2023, 09:35 AM

Oregon

^^^^^^^^^

April 06, 2023, 09:47 AM

radioman

quote:
Originally posted by Edmond:
I have a feeling that pilot is about to get PAID.

Money is nice, but I'd like to start seeing criminal charges.

Let's see some kidnaping, robbery, assault, unlawful entry, home invasion (if applicable) and other charges against the individuals involved.

April 06, 2023, 09:57 AM

V-Tail

Delta pilot rousted by Delta soldiers?

April 06, 2023, 10:02 AM

Georgeair

quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:
Putting a suspect in a shower is routine. It’s a confined area that restricts their movement and doesn’t have any place for a weapon or contraband to be concealed.

I take it you never watched The Godfather?

Just Scarface.

April 06, 2023, 10:28 AM

bubbatime

Let’s hope they don’t waterboard the poor guy in the shower.

April 06, 2023, 10:38 AM

CPD SIG

I forget the name of the exercise in Cocoa Beach Fl with Defense Intel Agency. That's been going on for YEARS.

______________________________________________________________________
"When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!"

“What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy

April 06, 2023, 10:48 AM

BBMW

He'll get something, but likely much less than you think.. maybe five figures. No injuries. Not taken to jail. No long term damage (that a jury would believe.)

If the shot him, it would be a big payday.

quote:
Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:
Apologies come with six zeros and heads on platters.
This pilot is traumatized now and the FAA will take his medical certificate.

April 06, 2023, 10:59 AM

911Boss

quote:
Originally posted by kidcop:
Putting a ~~suspect~~ startled non-participant in a shower is ~~routine~~ an abhorrent and unacceptable level of incompetency that should result in CRIMINAL charges on all those involved . It’s a confined area that restricts their movement and doesn’t have any place for a weapon or contraband to be concealed.

Fixed it for you.

This is Assault, burglary, battery, unlawful imprisonment, and more. “Ooopsie!, We made a mistake, we’re sorry, here’s a check.” doesn’t cut it.

I don’t think government officials should get a pass on what amounts to violent assault when they mistakenly hit the wrong target, especially in a “training environment” with all the time in the world to double and triple check stuff.

quote:
Originally posted by Bluecobra:
Probably a good thing the guy wasn't armed. He may have come up shooting. THEN, what would have happened??

Well in that case he would be charged, lose his job, be financially ruined and likely imprisoned.

April 06, 2023, 11:11 AM

abnmacv

As punishment the FBI agents should be transferred to Chicago to work on the gang taskforce.

April 06, 2023, 11:14 AM

HK Ag

quote:
Originally posted by Hildur:
quote:
Originally posted by mjlennon:
What’s up with putting him in the shower? Is that part of their training?

Top men indeed…

Maybe Sonny didn't want Eddie's money touching his. Or maybe he was crowding them and breathing too much. It's also possible they didn't want the kid looking at that face and they didn't have any towels around.

I see what you did there!