quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

...During the London Olympics, they flew a helo through the span of the Tower Bridge. The US would NEVER allow something similar (such as flying an F-16 through the St Louis Arch...

I've seen photos of Blue Angles F-18s flying REAL close to the Golden Gate Bridge during fleet week.

But never *under* the bridge. . . And were there even vehicles on the bridge when they did this?

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by arabiancowboy:

But balancing there is the apogee of pilot skill and is necessary for some missions sometimes. How do you think we can grow people to know when to break rules and by how much?

As usual, you are dead-on correct with the analysis and diagnosis of the root problems.

That's where our military leadership needs to step up and make the necessary changes. . .

Unfortunately, I think we've been trending in the wrong direction for the past decade or so.

Kind of you to say!

Some pilots(usually fighter pilots)push the envelope to the edge. Flew a T-6G under a bridge span, while I was a cadet. Flew inverted, at night, under the San Francisco Bay Bridge. Why?
Because I could. Came back to base with a palm frond embedded in right tip tank, another time. That took some explaining. Got out of the AF, flew for American Airlines. Retired the "scarf and goggles". Only fellow airmen understand this thrill. Miss it.

quote:

Originally posted by SilverWolf:
Flew inverted, at night, under the San Francisco Bay Bridge. Why?
Because I could.

With both hands tied behind your back?

Because "he could".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...orce_Base_B-52_crash

quote:

Originally posted by Floyd D. Barber:
Because "he could".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...orce_Base_B-52_crash

[FLASH_VIDEO]<iframe frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YQa4PpIkOZU" width="560"></iframe>[/FLASH_VIDEO]

I witnessed that crash. I'll never forget it.

There's another story, in 1983, General Bartholmew, Commander 127th FW out of Selfridge, flew the lead A-7 of the 4 ship, under Big Mac. Word at the time, Gov. Millikan blessed the event. Anyone out there that confirm this?

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

...During the London Olympics, they flew a helo through the span of the Tower Bridge. The US would NEVER allow something similar (such as flying an F-16 through the St Louis Arch...

I've seen photos of Blue Angles F-18s flying REAL close to the Golden Gate Bridge during fleet week.

But never *under* the bridge. . . And were there even vehicles on the bridge when they did this?

It's hard to tell from this shot, do a search on Blue Angels Golden Gate Bridge.

During WWII , there was a training base in Baton Rouge . There was a standing order that flying under the Mississippi River bridge just South of the base would land your ass in SERIOUS trouble . One Sunday morning someone from the power plant near the bridge called the base to report an aircraft flying under the bridge . The only plane in the sky at that hour was the base Commander getting his hours in before flight operations started . Busted ...

This "problem" will never go away.

Young guys, full of piss and vinegar and in a jet will press the limits. It is just another risk/reward decision that we make all the time. But guys who have not seen someone go down tend to seriously underestimate the risk involved. It is not just the risk in the airplane - it is the risk when you land and get confronted with what you did.

That whole "How will this play out on the ground" seems to be the last aviation skill to develop.

there is an adage in aviation

there are old pilots

there are bold pilots

there are no old bold pilots

When I started on my pilot career back in 1975 I had a hotdog instructor - his name was Doug Stanley and I lasted 4 flights with him until the CFI Howard Swain and Mike O'Brien stepped in and fixed the problem.

The problem was two-fold in not just the hotdogging on the first few flights, but the fact that I didn't have enough knowledge at the time to understand the big picture.

Today, Doug is a senior Captain for Air Canada. My replacement instructor was a great guy named Bryan Crook who was a no nonsense by the numbers no bullshit guy who corrected numerous bad habits that I had stared to develop and I almost quit because he rode me so hard. But I kept going and in spite of myself I actually got my license. Bryan is also a Senior Captain on Air Canada.

An interesting back story I like to tell about my early days of flying. My first flight in an airplane ever was when I was about 7 years old. My parents too me and my brother to an airshow at the airport in Halifax and for $10 or so I could get a quickie intro flight in an airplane. So they loaded three of us kids in an airplane and off we went. I was hooked. When we landed, my mom or dad happened to get a photo of us getting out of the plane - I still have that photo somewhere. The pilot was an 'old guy' to me but I never forgot his name - Harry Hollywood. It was unusual enough that I remembered it. Flash forward to the day I took my checkride for my private license. I went through everything - the ground portion and the air work. He made me work - no pencil whipping any portion of it. Got my license. He signed it off. My designated examiner was Harry Hollywood. As we finished the day, I pulled out the photo and showed him. I told him that I knew today was a foregone conclusion because he started me on my path a long time earlier.

To me, flying is one of those things that no matter how much you know, how many hours you have - its an unforgiving endeavor. There are things you can do, things you can't. In my mind, flying airplanes in inherently safe - but its an entire series of decision making events that separate a good flight from a bad flight. I have always considered myself to be a professional pilot - its an attitude.

One of my best friends is a retired TWA captain, another is a retired Delta driver - 757's, 767's, L-1011's - all big iron. They got absolute joy from getting in a 172 on a Saturday doing a poker rally around New England, or getting in the 182 and flying across the US. It was all wonderful stuff to watch the world go by at 120 knots and 2500 feet.

I gave up my medical a few years ago - will be getting it back this year and will spend a lot of time in the left seat with an instructor in the right. My experience tells me that I know a great deal about flying the aircraft through its performance envelope but my comfort level is at a minimum doing slow flight - the low end of the speed range not engaged in landing. So I will be working on that aspect of my skills until I am comfortable flying there like anywhere else.

I can't wait to get started.

If Doug or Bryan or Mike are reading this - thank you. To Harry, RIP sir.

So many wet blankets here. Reckless? Sure. But if it weren't for people willing to take a risk now and then we'd still have the damn queen on our money.

I'm all in favor of taking risks.

Just don't risk MY life, or the lives of others, while doing so. . .


During WWII, it was strictly PROHIBITED from flying planes under the Golden Gate Bridge. Of course, many pilots did so anyway. Since they were being shipped out to combat zones and would be in life-or-death combat in a matter of weeks, most of these 'infractions' were either ignored, overlooked, or dealt with by a lot of yelling but no practical punishment.

As stated by others, there needs to be a balance. The B-52 and C-17 crashes I referenced were examples of what can happen when this balance is NOT maintained, and 'hot dog' pilots push their aircraft beyond their abilities and violate the laws of aerodynamics. Imagine if either aircraft had crashed into a crowd or occupied building. . . In both cases, there were no ground casualties. In both cases, we were lucky.

I've been in the back seat of a plane piloted by a famous astronaut. We'd flown **low** into Canadian airspace from Montana, and as we were fast approaching a bridge I was certain we were going over I heard "I don't see any chains hanging below the bridge, do you?" on the icom. By time I could answer he'd dropped 100' and we were under. Very upsetting.

However, in my younger days of air racing I was 50-100' behind Dick Rutan. We were both less than a wingspan AGL and high voltage transmission lines were ahead. I expected Dick to climb 200' to go over the lines, but instead he dropped 10' and went under - and I followed him. Too much adrenaline, testosterone and youth. Now days low flying means 500' AGL

sounds like something Hoot might do

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmund:

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

...During the London Olympics, they flew a helo through the span of the Tower Bridge. The US would NEVER allow something similar (such as flying an F-16 through the St Louis Arch...

I've seen photos of Blue Angles F-18s flying REAL close to the Golden Gate Bridge during fleet week.

But never *under* the bridge. . . And were there even vehicles on the bridge when they did this?

It's hard to tell from this shot, do a search on Blue Angels Golden Gate Bridge.

The bridge remains open to the public during Fleet Week air shows, but the Blues never fly under it. I think whoever makes the decisions regarding the Golden Gate Bridge tend to be a little looser with the restriction of flying under it than anywhere else. When Virgin began air service to San Francisco, they were granted permission to fly under the GG Bridge during the Fleet Week air show but declined to do it on the day of, instead flying over it.

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
I'm all in favor of taking risks.

Just don't risk MY life, or the lives of others, while doing so. . .

^^^^THIS!

Funny how if you do something with incredible risk and survive you're a hero, a stud, someone to be admired. If you get hurt or killed performing the same act you were an idiot, a fool, and an example to others.

There's pushing the envelope, then there's being stupid. I've seen plenty of instances of pilots saying they're challenging themselves, and I call bull. 200' and 500kts is a blast. "Practicing" going under stuff on the off chance you're dodging SAM's going into Hanoi ain't a thing anymore. If you're just doing it for the rush then I gotta figure you're lacking significantly elsewhere because I'm perfectly satisfied doing something 99.whatever% of America never will.

I know a guy who did a fight where the deck was the ground (as opposed to 5000'). He said after the fact he realized how dumb and close to death that was. If you're fighting a real fight (when was the last real turning fight?) then a deck kill is just as good as a weapon kill hence pulling out the ditch at 5001' in training.

No rules in combat, no need for stupidity elsewhere.

Sounds like a crazy stunt. Maybe a bit off topic, I just wanted to say that those B-47's were beautiful aircraft.