quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Veeper:

quote:

It doesn't make sense to make them repairable.

It's not so simple. It's one thing to be indifferent and simply not warranty 3rd party parts and repairs. It's something else to use the force of law to try and keep consumers from accessing and repairing hardware that they've purchased.

Additionally, Apple has intentionally used proprietary screws, and in some cases glue, to try and keep consumers from accessing their own hardware.

I have 3 screw drivers specific to Apple, that I had to purchase, because Apple chose to use a pentalope or other type of screw instead of the standard torx type. Same size, but proprietary head.

This type of behavior is unacceptable IMO. If I buy something, it's mine. If I want to void the warranty to repair it, so be it. Chances are such that I'm attempting repairs beyond the warranty anyway.

So, what do you advocate as a solution?

Mandating the use of standard fasteners?

Making some glue illegal?

Is that what you want to do? Discuss making glue illegal? Or was that kindof a dick reply?

Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, etc etc. None of these companies seem to have any trouble using standard screws in their notebooks.

Is it outside the realm of possibility that a company would go out of their way to foil a user from accessing and servicing their own hardware? Is it not okay for people that repair Apple hardware for a living to point out that Apple is placing onerous restrictions on not only accessing the hardware for repair, but also creating an impenetrable supply chain for hardware so that only people that adhere to Apples unreasonable restrictions and cost-to-be-certified, have any hope to access replacement parts?

What's your solution?

Personally I commend the right to repair movement and while I don't condone the use of the force of law in most cases, if someone needs to shove a boot up Apples ass to get them to relax their shenanigans in this aspect, so be it.

Sure. Make screws and glue illegal. That'll help the conversation.

quote:

The repair of apple products is restricted by apple, and other hardware manufacturers, with a variety of techniques, up to and including not selling replacement parts to repair shops or individuals.

You can watch one or two Louis Rossman videos on YouTube and see the shitbag tactics by Apple, or Linus Tech Tips has an iMac Pro repair saga that Apple willingly acted in a nefarious way even after Linus admitted fault, was willing to pay for repair, and Apple went out of their way to make it almost impossible.

Apple sucks in this area. In a big way. And I use their products.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
Apparently few read the entire article. The issue of "Right to Repair" for autos was discussed in detail. John Deere was touched on. The repair of apple products is restricted by apple, and other hardware manufacturers, with a variety of techniques, up to and including not selling replacement parts to repair shops or individuals.

It's a pretty long and detailed article.

If Apple is requiring people to use Apple parts then Apple has to give them out free during the warranty period.

Now if they are restricting parts access after warranty there isn't a law prohibiting that I"m aware of other than patent law where they have a patent on the design of the part and other companies are not paying them fees to reproduce parts under the patent.

If the parts in question are not covered by a patent then someone in Xuangou China is going to make them if there is a demand.

Harley Davidson restricts it's dealers from reselling parts at wholesale to independent dealers, They can do that through the franchise agreement, if you want a geniune HD part then you need to buy it at a HD dealer.

Independent shops were buying up cases of HD oil filters, air filters etc, reselling them as factory parts and there were dealers who were making 20% on wholesale locally or on the internet. HD put a stop to it, and rightfully so, HD parts made by HD should be sold by HD if that's what HD wants.

There are a plethora of aftermarket parts, however if you need a new set of engine cases with the VIN you're going to HD.

Tesla is another prime example. They won't provide parts or service guidance to anyone other than Tesla-owned service centers. And while there's been a push for more of those lately, they're still few and far between outside of California and other major urban areas.

People who want to fix their own, or have their local mechanic do it, have to resort to scavenging parts from totaled Teslas, buying/selling/trading parts on eBay and Facebook, and using how-to videos on Youtube with techniques and tricks learned through reverse engineering and simple trial-and-error.

quote:

Originally posted by Veeper:

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:

quote:

Originally posted by Veeper:

quote:

It doesn't make sense to make them repairable.

It's not so simple. It's one thing to be indifferent and simply not warranty 3rd party parts and repairs. It's something else to use the force of law to try and keep consumers from accessing and repairing hardware that they've purchased.

Additionally, Apple has intentionally used proprietary screws, and in some cases glue, to try and keep consumers from accessing their own hardware.

I have 3 screw drivers specific to Apple, that I had to purchase, because Apple chose to use a pentalope or other type of screw instead of the standard torx type. Same size, but proprietary head.

This type of behavior is unacceptable IMO. If I buy something, it's mine. If I want to void the warranty to repair it, so be it. Chances are such that I'm attempting repairs beyond the warranty anyway.

So, what do you advocate as a solution?

Mandating the use of standard fasteners?

Making some glue illegal?

Is that what you want to do? Discuss making glue illegal? Or was that kindof a dick reply?

Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, etc etc. None of these companies seem to have any trouble using standard screws in their notebooks.

Is it outside the realm of possibility that a company would go out of their way to foil a user from accessing and servicing their own hardware? Is it not okay for people that repair Apple hardware for a living to point out that Apple is placing onerous restrictions on not only accessing the hardware for repair, but also creating an impenetrable supply chain for hardware so that only people that adhere to Apples unreasonable restrictions and cost-to-be-certified, have any hope to access replacement parts?

What's your solution?

Personally I commend the right to repair movement and while I don't condone the use of the force of law in most cases, if someone needs to shove a boot up Apples ass to get them to relax their shenanigans in this aspect, so be it.

Sure. Make screws and glue illegal. That'll help the conversation.

It was a somewhat smart-ass reply, but I'd say you elevated it to a higher level.

It seems that people often complain that they want some change, without a plan as to how to accomplish that. Sometimes it gives the impression that the complainer is suggesting that "someone ought to do something" and, sometimes that someone is the government. Maybe that isn't what you meant.

You want Apple to use standard fasteners. How do you propose moving them in that direction? Your reply about boots seems to suggest that you wouldn't object to statutory mandates, so my question wasn't to out of place.

It's the other way around. There should be laws that require manufacturers and carriers who sell these devices to design them to be repairable, to have specific user replaceable parts (thinking specifically about batteries), kept them patched and updated, and viable on the networks for ten years.

I have a Samsung Galaxy S4. I bought it specifically because I thought since it had some level of expandability and repairability (the aforementioned battery) that I'd be able to use it for a long time. I was right.

Now the vast majority of phones don't have user replaceable batteries. Lithium ion batteries seem to start losing capacity at about two years (in my experience), so this is an absolute self destruct mechanism for the phone. Also older Android versions seem to have a security flaw. My bank won't let me use it's app because my version of Android is too old. So why won't Samsung / Verizon let me update the OS? Otherwise the phone works perfectly. Why should I have to replace it? So the companies can make more money?

There is a role for consumer protection laws.

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:
People who want to have these devices repaired are in the minority and it would be a mistake to force a change in the industry for the small percentage of people who want to repair a device that isn't made to be repaired.

Modern electronics are made to be disposable. If you'd like to pay 2X and have an iPhone the size of the old shoe phones then demand they be made repairable.

I work on these products for the manufacturer- We can't get parts for the devices. We get the left over parts from the manufacturing runs.

Lots of parts are custom to that specific device at that time. No one else uses them or has a need for them. It's not something generally available or stocked.

There are a variety of issues that all get conflated under 'right to repair'. Some are more annoyances, and some are utter fuckery. Here are a few of the actual issues:

- Refusing to sell repair tools and manuals, but requiring repairs to be done according to the manual to maintain warranty coverage.

- Including the 'software' in the electronics on a piece of hardware under a license and/or copyright to essentially make a physical object impossible to legally duplicate without violating anti-hacking laws. Similar to how the Inkjet printer companies started putting tiny chips in their ink cartridges just so they could sue anyone who reverse-engineered them and make a 3rd party cartridge. This is a fairly big one. John Deere does some pretty draconian stuff with their large farm equipment using rules over software licensing. Think of it like this: Say the hard drive in your PC died, but, lucky you, you had a backup of the drive! So, you buy a new hard drive, copy your backup onto it, and then Dell sues you for illegally copying the software you have licensed from them. It's kinda like that.

- Using Copyright and other laws to prevent the import of 3rd party replacement parts...sometimes from the 3rd party that made them for the OEM in the first place. Apple does this. So, it isn't just that Apple won't sell other folks their batteries. They have designed them in such a way that they can keep anyone else from purchasing an equivalent replacement part from the battery manufacturer and have it imported into the US.

- The non-standard screws and gluing stuff together IS part of the right to repair 'movement', but it doesn't have much of a chance of going anywhere. Everyone outside the West Coast knows that, but the hippies still like to yell about it.

A lot of this stuff has to do with companies finding novel ways to use anti-hacking and piracy laws to make it illegal (not just difficult, but actually a violation of the law) to repair physical goods outside of the official manufacturer-approved channel. This was not an issue when so many devices were purely mechanical hardware, but now software is all over the place. Everything has a computer in it!

That is why it is important to clear up the limits on what adding software to a physical device does in terms of your ownership and right to do what you want with a physical object you purchased.

- Bret

I’m more pissed about Apple’s planned obsolescence in their products.

define irony,

Buncha guys that argue for less gun laws and less government involvement, arguing about needing more laws on phones and more government involvement.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I’m more pissed about Apple’s planned obsolescence in their products.

I will accept one example of Apple’s obsolescence being “planned.” Can you provide any evidence of your claim? Otherwise I call bullshit.

If anything, they have consistently provided software support for older hardware far in excess of their competition. Yesterday I plugged in a five year old Airport Extreme and it said a firmware update was available. When was the last time that Linksys, et al, provided an update five years after you bought a router from Walmart?

What is the source of this unsubstantiated tripe?

quote:

Originally posted by Vanwall:
Planned obsolescence has been around for a long time.

Exactly. But we're still on a path to overpopulation.

Getting an MRI or something, chatting up the tech, I was told the equipment lease agreement specifically said they cannot use imaging equipment to view the internal architecture of an iPhone. This was about five years ago or so, and may have been B.S., or just funning around ...

Planned obsolescence is a reason to care about right to repair, but right to repair does not generally mean an end to planned obsolescence. The idea is generally, if they won’t fix it, they shouldn’t be able to stop you from trying to fix it yourself...whatever ‘it’ is.


As for asking for more laws, I’d be perfectly happy to consider abolishing copyright, patents and a few other major areas of trade law instead, but that opinion probably doesn’t have as much traction as right to repair does. I’d be fine getting rid of the idea of licensing, and simply
Owning something or not, full stop. I say this being employed in the software industry that licenses everything we make and tries not to sell anything outright. Again, probably not popular enough to go anywhere. Right to repair is better than doing nothing, but not really ideal.

- Bret

Interesting thread...

I read the article linked in the OP. Private shop “estimated” Apple would charge $800-$1200 to do the repair on a current model (2018) computer and computer owner agreed with the shop’s estimate...

Silly question - did anyone think to actually check with Apple to see if they could repair it and at what cost? Apple has a pretty good reputation for taking care of it’s customers. I would expect them to certainly charge in this case (water damage, clearly abuse/negligence) but it might not have been anywhere near the “estimated” amount.


As for the the Magnuson-Moss act, I think there has been some over simplifying. Company can’t require you to have them do service and can’t refuse warranty claim for unrelated repairs. If I have Bubba the shade-tree mechanic put in new shocks, they can’t use that as a basis to refuse my transmission claim. They certainly CAN refuse a warranty claim on the suspension if Bubba fucks it up while doing the install.


Company can’t require you use their parts, but if you use 3rd party parts AND those parts cause a problem or do other damage, the company IS most certainly off the hook for warranty coverage as a result of inferior parts.

I don’t have to use Motorcraft air filters in my Mustang, but if I just tape a paper towel across the air box and toast my engine I can’t claim a MFA violation. I didn’t use a “proper” air filter and if that is the cause of the engine damage, it is my problem (as it should be).


Now when it comes to tech items, I don’t see it as “planned obsolescence” so much as the rapid changes and improvements in the tech make it unreasonable to try and force some defined product life cycle on an item. It would artificially limit improvements/advances and creates what I think would be an unreasonable burden on companies.

How do you make the next generation OS take advantage of hardware improvements and at the same time cripple it to work on hardware three, four, or five generations back? Hardware/software drive improvement of each other. Requiring either to survive five or ten years would cripple the advancement of both.


As for “forcing” companies to make it easier for third parties to make money repairing/servicing their products I find the idea retarded. Why not just demand all software be made open source or put all hardware engineering plans into the public domain? Companies invest in R&D to develop, test, market, etc. they have risks involved. Trademarks, copyrights, patents, etc. are what protects that investment. They should just willingly, or more accurately unwillingly, be forced by the government to help OTHER companies make money off of their time and expenses?

F u c k i n g r e t a r d e d.


If I want to make money off of Apple or John Deere, I should figure their shit out. Make the investment, take the time, learn how to do it and then compete. Or plan “B”, get a job with Apple or JD. I have no “right” to benefit from their work/products/etc.


If there is a market for large, cumbersome tech devices with easy repairability using non-proprietary, discreet components that are readily available in the generic parts supply chain, that can be easily fixed by any fudd with a screwdriver and soldering iron, then some forward looking entrepreneur should design that product and bring it to market, hell they might make a few hundred bucks before everyone else siphons off their customer base.



Sorry, I will say it - if you don’t like it, vote with your $$$ and don’t buy it. It IS an option if you are willing to give up quality, features, performance, etc. You can buy cheap crap smartphones for $100 all day long or you can buy past generation stuff on the used market.

Or this novel idea, if you are going to drop three to four grand on the latest MacBook, spring for the extra $300 (about the same price the 3rd party “thought” it would cost for him to repair it) for the AppleCare+ Coverage to save you from your stoopid self when you decide to douche it with your beverage.


I’ve dropped cell phones and tablets (iPhone/iPad) screen protectors are CHEAP insurance for the occasional scuffs. I had a 6mo old iPad replaced under AppleCare+ when I was stoopid and drove off with it on the roof of the car. No question my fault, cost me all of $49 (plus the $99 original cost for the AppleCare+ coverage - remaining 18mo of which transferred to the replacement iPad). Much better than the $800 a new one would have cost.


Put me in the “more capitalism/less government intrusion” camp.

I do not trust at least one Apple store. I took a damaged Air in at 7 P.M. on a Tuesday night and was showed photos (never saw it opened up!) purporting to be the inside of that
laptop with extensive liquid damage and corrosion all through the boards. The next day at 11 A.M. it was taken to an independent repair store and the only damage that was found was in the charging circuit. He took the bottom off in front of me to show the damage.

The Apple store offered to repair it for about $950 dollars, more than the purchase price of it. Obviously we declined. The independent shop disassembled and cleaned all the boards and found no other damage related to the liquid intrusion. His price was about $300 or so. Ignoring the difference in pricing for repairs, how do I get such a difference in level of damage? In less than twelve hours the corrosion did not go away by itself. And being shown photos of the damaged unit, I should have taken some photos of his photos. A lot of scenarios went through my head,all pointing to me getting a screwing.

I emailed Apple in response to this and never received any sort of a response to this. My sympathy for them is zero.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I’m more pissed about Apple’s planned obsolescence in their products.

I will accept one example of Apple’s obsolescence being “planned.” Can you provide any evidence of your claim? Otherwise I call bullshit.

If anything, they have consistently provided software support for older hardware far in excess of their competition. Yesterday I plugged in a five year old Airport Extreme and it said a firmware update was available. When was the last time that Linksys, et al, provided an update five years after you bought a router from Walmart?

What is the source of this unsubstantiated tripe?

I have owned the fucking things, that’s where; perfectly working devices that they stop providing updates for intentionally so that they function as phones, email receivers, and very slow surfing.

I’m curious... specifically with Apple, what parts are people breaking so frequently? I’ve had every iPhone since the second generation. I can’t even remember what number it was I have broken one screen which was replaced free buy my Apple store. Never had a battery go out, etc. Guess I’m just lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by braillediver:
People who want to have these devices repaired are in the minority and it would be a mistake to force a change in the industry for the small percentage of people who want to repair a device that isn't made to be repaired.

Modern electronics are made to be disposable. If you'd like to pay 2X and have an iPhone the size of the old shoe phones then demand they be made repairable.

I work on these products for the manufacturer- We can't get parts for the devices. We get the left over parts from the manufacturing runs.

Lots of parts are custom to that specific device at that time. No one else uses them or has a need for them. It's not something generally available or stocked.

Exactly. I hope the thingamabobber on your car doesnt break.

911Boss and HRK for the win.

My thumbs thank you 911. You typed an almost identical post to what I was about to pen.

I use Apple devices now for consumer devices exclusively (phone, tablet, laptop). I learned when I bought my first mac in 2001 to buy AppleCare. I went through 3 or 4 run-ins with the old iBook G3 logic board issue. After replacing the logic board (box/call tag sent to me, laptop sent off, fixed, and received back in less than 72 hours) two or 3 times, they just replaced my laptop with a new device that was a newer generation. I don't think I've had to use the AC since, but for portable items, I won't decline to buy it. Small insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

quote:

Originally posted by gearhounds:
I’m more pissed about Apple’s planned obsolescence in their products.

I will accept one example of Apple’s obsolescence being “planned.” Can you provide any evidence of your claim? Otherwise I call bullshit.

If anything, they have consistently provided software support for older hardware far in excess of their competition. Yesterday I plugged in a five year old Airport Extreme and it said a firmware update was available. When was the last time that Linksys, et al, provided an update five years after you bought a router from Walmart?

What is the source of this unsubstantiated tripe?

I have owned the fucking things, that’s where; perfectly working devices that they stop providing updates for intentionally so that they function as phones, email receivers, and very slow surfing.

You’re pissed that they stopped providing updates after four years? That’s Apple’s stated policy, four updates past purchase. Reference me a single Android phone that is actively supported four versions past the sale date. You’re lucky if you get one update from your carrier for most Android phones. Updates to old hardware outside of Apple is way more haphazard than within the Apple ecosystem.