I got out in 1989, no classes or transitional training at all, and talking to those who have recently gotten out there is ver little now.

In my uneducated opinion, what the VA is trying treat as mental disorders, most could be taken care of with transition training or deprogramming. Special Forces is more of a team environment than others, but in general, the military works as a team to accomplish a task, those tasks are pretty structured to get to the end result.

All of a sudden, you’re out of the military, no more structure and no more team. You get a job, you fend for yourself and try to fit in, it’s not an easy thing to do. Now throw in the fact that there are many who have seen and done things, that can’t be unseen and you’ve now amplified the problem.

My thoughts on veteran suicide are around how hard it is to get help through the VA. Until you’ve used the VA system for a while, it can be a nightmare to navigate and you can easily lose hope. Example it took me 31 years to get compensation for an issue that was acknowledged (listed as service connected 0% compensation) when I got out in 1989, and another year to fight the system to get surgery for that issue.

When it is over, you lose sense of purpose.
You are expected to turn off a switch and find a new purpose.
The comradery and focus leaves a hole in your soul.
Eventually, if you work hard enough it gets better.
But, your adjustment to being a civilian causes you to question others commitment to their effort.
Civilians just move at a different pace in their life than I do.
If you haven't served, you don't understand.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
How much of that disillusionment and substance abuse is laid at the feet of the government, and how much is a byproduct of their own dramatic loss of identity?

Transitioning from an elite unit - where you have most/all of your identity wrapped up in being one of the guys and the best of the best - into just another Joe Schmoe can be a massive shock, and easily result in depression, substance abuse, misanthropy, etc.

We even see it on the smaller scale with regular servicemembers who get out, or even with LEOs who retire or are forced out by medical issues. You go from being "a soldier/cop", with an identity and a purpose as part of the team with which you've formed deep bonds, to a nobody... It can be a rough transition.

The notion of being disengaged from the "tribe" and moving into different chapters sometimes creates a jarring effect. When I retired my wife pointed out I was now free to pursue my "dream job." I had to remind her I just retired from it...for someone used to traveling at velocity, the sudden stop can kill.

All military personnel are in the same boat not just special operations. And if anything special operations forces have more resources and options available than the regular Joe.
It doesn’t make what happens to troops when they have outlived their usefulness right in any way. We do need to do a much better job taking care of the troops before and after service. If my experience is any measure, the VA is getting better, not as much or as quickly as it should, but taking ateps in the right direction

When I retired from L/E I’ll admit I feared I’d miss it more than I really did. Yeah I missed the social aspects of working with great folks, but I’ve kept in touch with them so even though I’m no longer one of the team, it’s not so bad.

The biggest thing that prepped and helped me was a very smart supervisor/friend who told me, “Being a cop is what you do. It’s not who you are.” Perhaps the military should be teaching this to the SOF, or even regular military folks facing retirement/ separation. Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
If my experience is any measure, the VA is getting better, not as much or as quickly as it should, but taking steps in the right direction

I have nothing good to say about the VA. I watched a guy die in a waiting area simply because the lady behind the glass wouldn't put her cellphone down and look up, regardless of how vocal we were being.

It's gotten steadily worse over the past 14 years for me (after fighting them for 10 years to get my rating). Continuity of care is non-existent and it takes months to get seen at the VA for most things, if they don't forget about you altogether. I've been waiting on a shoulder surgery (torn rotator cuff) for almost 9 years now but they keep saying someone/something else takes precedence. Ask for community based health care options and they won't approve it because they classify the surgery as a quality of life issue, not a medically necessary one

When I got out in 99 they had a week (?) of "courses" to aid in separation. I didn't even attend them so I can't speak to their efficacy other than to say you can't teach anything in a week that would have reprogrammed the previous decade and a half of military life in my opinion.

I think these guys need support but I think acting like it's a special warfare only problem is short sighted.

Going from purpose and pride to the vacuum of civilian life is a massive change. If you fall into the right job/life/goal then the transition is easier. If you struggle to find purpose it could be hell.

We can and should do better for our troops that need help.

BTDT. Similar concept in dealing with ARNG / ANG in Alabama in the the early to mid 1990s. IIRC, at the end of Gulf War 1 in 1991, combined strength of ARNG and ANG in Alabama was around 23-24,000, among the largest in the US. Then Klintoon gets elected along with his kommiecrat kongress friends and the ranks get decimated to around 13-14,000 by end of 1994.

Yep, same for me in 1991. Stop loss in late 1990 and then upon return it was a physical and get the hell out. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Regards to the VA - its hit & miss. Each facility is its own little kingdom and within the docs & staff can be great or crappy. Mostly I've had good service & treatment. The biggest issue is the Army losing my medical records. They have the physical going in but nothing until I went to the VA in 1994.

I'm reminded of a poem 'God and a Solder', written by an anonymous author.

'God and a soldier all people adore
In time of war, but not before;
And when war is over and all things are righted,
God is neglected and an old soldier slighted.'

I know a fella who was in the Marine Corps for three or four years in the late 70s (didn't go to Vietnam). He went on to have a long career at, and retire from, a factory/plant job. He has held a few different jobs since then, and does them all very well. The dude's life and achievements have been largely outside the military, but that time he spent in the Corps more-or-less defines him. He wears the hat, has the stickers and license plate on his vehicle, and has tons of anecdotes from his time in the Marines. I find it odd. I suppose military service can be an extreme experience for people, and it happens at what is usually an impressionable time in people's lives. All that being said, if my friend's personality lends itself to his military service making such an impression on his life, I can understand how someone with a similar personality and even more extensive military experience could have a hard time adjusting to a lack of those circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by clubleaf206:
I'm reminded of a poem 'God and a Solder', written by an anonymous author.

'God and a soldier all people adore
In time of war, but not before;
And when war is over and all things are righted,
God is neglected and an old soldier slighted.'

Same theme as Kipling's "Tommy", from 1890:


I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

I guess I am very fortunate. Never had anything but good from the VA. I was a Vietnam vet and when I made some claims for service connected things, a VN Service Rep helped me.

I've never had to wait for any care and I like how they treat me. One thing, real different than outside labs, if I have an appointment for a blood draw, like I did yesterday, I could go at any time during that day. I don't recall what time I was scheduled for yesterday, but I got up, got dressed and arrived at 6:45 AM and had to wait less than 5 minutes before being called back.

I can schedule my appointments in person or with a clerk and change them any tme I need to do so.

I like how quickly I can see a provider there and the fact that I can call my pharmacist, my Doc's clerk or nurse and get an immediate response.

It may be because these are the two largest VA Hospitals, Bay Pines and Haley and they are well staffed because of the sheer number of retired vets in our area, but it works for me.

Not the least of all the things I like is the price. Not a penny in cost for prescriptions or treatment or anything else.

There's a 24 hour Emergency Room here, too, that I've needed to use three times in the 20 some years I've gone there.

I've heard all the horror stories about the VA, but never had any problem myself.

Bob

I’m sure it’s hard making the change but it can be done. I worked with a guy that was one of the Rangers on the street in the Blackhawk Down incident. He was able to transition into civilian life pretty well as a federal officer- and that is an elite warrior trained and bred for battle.

quote:

shawnryanshow.com

I highly recommend Shawn's podcast, their aren't many that I have not watched.

Most can be viewed on youtube.com.

I listened to all 5 hours of Shawn Ryan’s conversation with Kyle Morgan. Kyle started his military career in the 82nd and finished it in CAG. Incredible life and story that put him into a bad place for quite awhile. Didn’t sound like the Army was a great deal of help, most of the strength came from within.

quote:

In my uneducated opinion, what the VA is trying treat as mental disorders, most could be taken care of with transition training or deprogramming.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Spend some time on a VA psych ward. PTSD is not easily treated. Do some reading in the area.

The military does a generally okay job of taking care of people getting out, e.g., transition programs. But some people are overlooked or missed, and some folks don't or can't take advantage of it.

The VA has some great folks and there are some fine examples of helping vets but the VA system itself is bureaucratic and cumbersome. It is legit to look at it this way: you are going to be on your own; if someone or a program helps, take advantage; but be prepared to look out for yourself. Lots of guys and gals have gone through this, so learn from them. (That's the point of the complaining in podcasts and articles: to leave a warning to those who follow that there is an ambush ahead, be prepared).

People get out and really miss the best parts of being in the service and in good units and doing things they believed in. They miss the person they were (in charge, younger, sharp, strong, in a uniform with stripes and medals). Veterans organizations can be good places to join but they are not for everyone. And it takes time to break into one, they can be clubby, cliquey, boozy.

Old friends are often the best treatment for the post-military malaise that many feel.

Left active duty Army in December 1972 following two tours in Vietnam. Airborne infantry Pathfinders, the motto was "First In, Last Out".

We weren't welcome to join VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) because we weren't considered "real veterans".

I remember stores and restaurants with signs "NO DOGS, NO MILITARY". Apartment complexes refused to rent to military or veterans. Lots of employers would not hire veterans (until the Veterans Re-Employment Act provided tax incentives to do so).

How to spoil a nice party? Easy, just mention you were a Vietnam veteran, then feel all the love in the air.

1975 went to VA Clinic for a 1:00PM appointment, sat around until 4:00PM, then told to come back next week. Went back, informed that because I missed my last appointment I was no longer enrolled in VA medical care. Re-enrolled with help from a congressman. Continued with the cattle call VA experiences for a while, then started using private care.

1981 needed a piece of shrapnel removed from my knee, up at Oh-Dark-Thirty, drove 90 miles to VA hospital for 7:00AM outpatient surgery, sat around until 11:00AM then was introduced to my surgeon (AND HIS INTERPRETER, DUDE SPOKE NO ENGLISH). 3 months and two senators later, had my surgery done at a military base. Swore off VA care for many years.

July 2021 I filed for VA disability, scheduled for 6 medical evaluations. After the first 3 appointments I started receiving checks in the mail in barely 10 weeks time, then after the last 3 appointments I started getting more. Received disability benefits for 5 months before they sent my determination letter (80% permanent service-connected, tax-free). A welcome addition to my retirement income, but 49 years 8 months after the fact.

Spent many years avoiding any discussion about my service or Vietnam. The Purple Heart and a buck-and-a-half might get a cup of coffee at Denny's (maybe, on a good day). Now my state gives me a free set of license plates every year. People approach me, want to shake my hand, tell me "Thanks for your service", and I try to hold my tongue.

Nuff said.

quote:

Originally posted by john crusher:
When it is over, you lose sense of purpose.
You are expected to turn off a switch and find a new purpose.
The comradery and focus leaves a hole in your soul.
Eventually, if you work hard enough it gets better.
But, your adjustment to being a civilian causes you to question others commitment to their effort.
Civilians just move at a different pace in their life than I do.
If you haven't served, you don't understand.

Nailed it in one.