quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
She got into an argument with her child’s father and fired a shot in his direction to let him know how angry she was.

Now is that someone you want to have a gun?

That's a good example of lawfully disarming someone. After some idiot breaks a law in that fashion then I'm all for taking said idiot's guns away. But not for thought crimes.

Background: not a LEO but a student of history.

First observation:
Any law like this would get challenged in court immediately. For it to take effect, and thus for any LEOs to have any reason to bother with enforcement, that legal challenge would have had to have been rejected by a court finding in favor of the order meeting the Constitutional challenge.

So, in this scenario not only would there have to have been a confiscation law enacted, but a court/judge/panel would have to have found it Constitutional. Which seems very doubtful, IMO - another reason to be thankful for POTUS 45 and his appointees.

Second observation:
Again, not an LEO but a student of history. Given the law was passed and given the legal challenge having failed, there would be a percentage who would salute and go down the list and try to pick up the guns. Not all, and maybe not many but some. I would expect the percentage of LEO compliance, again given the law was passed and the appeal failed, would depend on the orientation of the jurisdiction - some departments historically antagonistic to 2A might fully engage. I would doubt much would happen in rural areas.

Non-LEO responding.

We may well soon be a potential test case for this dilemma, as the Democrat controlled legislature and Democrat governor passed a Red Flag ERPO law here earlier this year. I'm not opposed to the concept of a Red Flag ERPO law, if it has been carefully and thoughtfully crafted to protect the rights of the accused and if it has appropriate due process protections...but the Democrats who crafted this bill and rammed it through the legislature most certainly did not include proper due process protections for the gun owner, including the initial order could be issued in an ex parte hearing, meaning that the first time the accused gun owner becomes aware of the order is when LE either knocks or enters his/her home with a search warrant.

The majority of our country Sheriffs opposed the law, came out against it before it was passed, and several have taken different positions on enforcement. We have one county sheriff who flat our refuses to enforce it. Another Sheriff, who has actively sued to prevent the law from going into effect has taken the position that the search warrant, assuming that it has been properly issued and signed is lawful and he therefore has no choice but to serve the warrant and accompanying ERPO order, however he has said he will not confiscate the guns in question. Essentially he is willing to serve and inform the gun owner that she is required to surrender them, but that he will not enter and confiscate them based on the ERPO order...in the case of this law provisions are made for the gun owner to either sell or transfer the guns in question to an FFL or another option is to surrender them to local LE where they will store them, pending the outcome of the hearings.

Although a few PDs came out against the Red Flag ERPO before it was passed into law, they have been silent in regards to what their individual plans are for enforcement should it be allowed to go into effect next year.

In the end, only time will tell if the LE who came out against the law will back up their objections to the law by refusing enforcement of it.

As has been previously pointed out by previous comments, enforcement of this type of law will likely not be consistent across each jurisdiction. Some LEA will enforce it, others will likely not.

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
Think I am over reacting? Look up New York City Police Department’s stop-and-frisk program. How many LEO's in NYC quit when given the green light to violate the 4th Amendment? Or was it they were ignorant of Terry v Ohio.....?

Could you expand on this some? I'm not getting it. Are you saying NYPD's "stop and frisk" program was/is unconstitutional? And if so, are you basing that on any actual evidence, or the garage that appears on TV that was based primarily on the naming of this program?

Not an LEO.

As others have stated, I would expect differing levels of enthusiasm for enforcement in different areas.

Beyond that, every officer is an individual human being. I would expect a whole range of responses to such an order, perhaps all the way from “F... that noise, here’s my badge, take it and the job and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine!” to “Sure thing Sarge, where do you want me to start.”

I’d imagine some officers have put some thought into how they’d respond to such an order and some haven’t. I’d even guess that some who have thought about it aren’t sure how they’ll respond, or if they think they’re sure some of them may end up reacting differently than they think.

If it ever gets to that, it may not be as cut and dried and simple as we think.

Personally, I feel like it is all of our jobs to elect sane, right-thinking people and educate as many folks as we can to make sure it doesn’t come to that.

The left seems to go out of their way to vilify guns and the industrialization of society, moving much of the population from the land to the cities doesn’t help. Instead of growing up as farm kids where firearms and are necessary and dangerous tools that must be respected and handled carefully, many city kids only experience of guns is seeing bad guys use them on TV. We need to introduce as many folks as we can to responsible firearm usage.

Edited to fix stupid typos: s/son/sun/, s/have/haven’t/. Proofreading is apparently not a strong suit...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: slosig,

Funny how asking for LEO opinions always gets mostly opinions about LEOs from everyone but.

Appliances are lime that too

In the Communist states I would be concerned. But I believe LEO's activities with respect to confiscations of firearms without due process would be the least of their priorities, as we would be in the midst of an insurrection.

Every community gets precisely the quality of policing that they deserve. The same is true of your elected leadership.

quote:

Originally posted by P210:
Funny how asking for LEO opinions always gets mostly opinions about LEOs from everyone but.

Appliances are lime that too

I can’t imagine an LEO would want to publicly answer this question either way. Do you publicly state you will not follow orders from a superior or do you publicly state you will ignore the oath you took. No win situation.

quote:

Originally posted by frayedends:

quote:

Originally posted by P210:
Funny how asking for LEO opinions always gets mostly opinions about LEOs from everyone but.

Appliances are lime that too

I can’t imagine an LEO would want to publicly answer this question either way. Do you publicly state you will not follow orders from a superior or do you publicly state you will ignore the oath you took. No win situation.

Loaded question for sure. I wasn’t about to get sucked into it. The fact that it becomes a Rorschach test is what amuses me.

"Woman with large breasts."
"Woman with medium breasts."
"This one looks like you... with breasts."

quote:

Originally posted by P210:

quote:

Originally posted by frayedends:

quote:

Originally posted by P210:
Funny how asking for LEO opinions always gets mostly opinions about LEOs from everyone but.

Appliances are lime that too

I can’t imagine an LEO would want to publicly answer this question either way. Do you publicly state you will not follow orders from a superior or do you publicly state you will ignore the oath you took. No win situation.

Loaded question for sure. I wasn’t about to get sucked into it. The fact that it becomes a Rorschach test is what amuses me.

Exactly. These threads, intentionally or not, are argument bait. They bring out responses that are absolute (always and never) and they bring out responses that are neither and people will twist them into something that has. Then parts of the thread go after the police in general with the hypotheticals ("if they ever tried..."), then others (often the cops) get defensive, and then the thread eventually gets locked.

I seem to recall stories of people being stopped by New Jersey Police for a traffic infraction and upon their vehicle being searched an empty shell case was found, then it’s handcuff and jail time????


If those stories are true then look at at how police act in NJ.

As a badge wearing employee for a local sheriff’s office (albeit in the detention side) I can say this for certain: non-compliance in my county, from the top down. There are certain employees who would tase their own mother if ordered too, but our admin won’t go that way. Those gutless employees, when sandwiched between a department admin telling them not to comply with state law and a state government telling them to wound simply call in sick.... cowards. And they’re aren’t that many of them.

And while SouthFloridaLaw May come across as nit liking police, I don’t think that’s the case. He/she provides a critical check on law enforcement. Humans are humans after all and there is certainly no shortage of dirtbag badge wearers who take advantage of their power to knowingly violate rights. They need to be culled. And they are the minority.

LEO from Utah. It ain't gonna happen here. This issue came up with our unions and Sheriff's association during Obozo's reign. All of the Unions and all but one of the elected Sheriff's agreed. We are not going to violate the 2nd amendment. Not gonna collect magazines or AR15s. We are not gonna go door to door. I don't know when or how we would have the time to do that? 16 million AR15's in the hands of citizens? Lawyers and legislators write these stupid laws. They can write what ever silly laws they want. I ain't gonna do it. They can't make me see guns in the hands of ordinary citizens as a crime and they can't make me do anything about it. Depolicing is a real thing. It is happening everyday and every where. Pass any silly anti second amendment law here in Utah and you will see depolicing like you have never seen it before.

Won't bet on Ca, NJ, or NY.

quote:

Originally posted by frayedends:

quote:

Originally posted by P210:
Funny how asking for LEO opinions always gets mostly opinions about LEOs from everyone but.

Appliances are lime that too

I can’t imagine an LEO would want to publicly answer this question either way. Do you publicly state you will not follow orders from a superior or do you publicly state you will ignore the oath you took. No win situation.

Yeah.

Let me dust off any confusion.

Any person who tells me to take guns from law abiding citizens in some across the board gun collection seizure can go fuck themselves. That’s about the time I head to the hills to the family homestead and we prep for round 2.

*Come and take them*

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
As a badge wearing employee for a local sheriff’s office (albeit in the detention side) I can say this for certain: non-compliance in my county, from the top down. There are certain employees who would tase their own mother if ordered too, but our admin won’t go that way. Those gutless employees, when sandwiched between a department admin telling them not to comply with state law and a state government telling them to wound simply call in sick.... cowards. And they’re aren’t that many of them.

And while SouthFloridaLaw May come across as nit liking police, I don’t think that’s the case. He/she provides a critical check on law enforcement. Humans are humans after all and there is certainly no shortage of dirtbag badge wearers who take advantage of their power to knowingly violate rights. They need to be culled. And they are the minority.

Very well stated.
SFL provides remedy for overreach by government applied by law enforcement. You don't have to dislike LEOs to do that. You just have to love law to make it your career path. While many make jokes about lawyers, me included, when someone is charged with something they seek counsel to try and get the charge squashed or reduced.

I just drove cross county and back. The "gun dance", (unload -> put in luggage) from crossing a line on the map is buffoonery! It didn't apply to me, we only drove through states that honor my CCW permit...easy peasy. It was the wife's gun, (doesn't have a permit ), that was the issue and how different states treated a gun in the console between us.
At least this trip really opened her eyes to WHY we took that class for a permit...the one she couldn't be bothered to get fingerprinted afterwards and apply for.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:

quote:

Originally posted by pulicords:
I'm retired now, but I was a LEO for more than 30 years and I'm Jewish by birth. When I was sworn in as cop, I took an oath to obey the Constitution of the United States of America. The 2nd Amendment is an important component of the Bill of Rights, and provides a safeguard for all citizens (not just the majority) against a tyrannical government. I consider these factors, and the undeniable truth that what Hitler directed his government to do to people of my faith, as well as other minorities was lawful, according their system of "justice."

LEOs aren't just "paid professionals." If they were only that, they wouldn't take an oath to uphold something greater than local, state, or even federal legislation. There's many ways to resist unlawful/immoral commands. I've done so in the past and I'm sure I (or any cop worth their salt) could effectively do so in the event some "manager" requested them to take actions that were contrary to their oath of office.

You beat me too it. While I'm sure there are some out there who would obey any order, most of us would figure out a way to disobey it. BTDT.

Color me in this camp.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:

quote:

Originally posted by thumperfbc:
As a badge wearing employee for a local sheriff’s office (albeit in the detention side) I can say this for certain: non-compliance in my county, from the top down. There are certain employees who would tase their own mother if ordered too, but our admin won’t go that way. Those gutless employees, when sandwiched between a department admin telling them not to comply with state law and a state government telling them to wound simply call in sick.... cowards. And they’re aren’t that many of them.

And while SouthFloridaLaw May come across as nit liking police, I don’t think that’s the case. He/she provides a critical check on law enforcement. Humans are humans after all and there is certainly no shortage of dirtbag badge wearers who take advantage of their power to knowingly violate rights. They need to be culled. And they are the minority.

Very well stated.
SFL provides remedy for overreach by government applied by law enforcement. You don't have to dislike LEOs to do that. You just have to love law to make it your career path. While many make jokes about lawyers, me included, when someone is charged with something they seek counsel to try and get the charge squashed or reduced.

I just drove cross county and back. The "gun dance", (unload -> put in luggage) from crossing a line on the map is buffoonery! It didn't apply to me, we only drove through states that honor my CCW permit...easy peasy. It was the wife's gun, (doesn't have a permit ), that was the issue and how different states treated a gun in the console between us.
At least this trip really opened her eyes to WHY we took that class for a permit...the one she couldn't be bothered to get fingerprinted afterwards and apply for.

Which, ironically, is only that way because of lawyers.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:.
Could you expand on this some? I'm not getting it. Are you saying NYPD's "stop and frisk" program was/is unconstitutional? And if so, are you basing that on any actual evidence, or the garage that appears on TV that was based primarily on the naming of this program?

The main case was Floyd, et al. v. City of New York, et al.. The courts consolidated a few cases. At the end of the day NYC dropped their appeal and has significantly altered their "stop and frisk" policy, in line with "Terry".

quote:

Originally posted by Southflorida-law:
My experience with LEO's based on close to 20 years doing criminal defense work, the majority of them will willingly and knowingly violate every one of your Constitutional rights. The law libraries are full of cases in which LEO's violated people's 1st, 2nd, 4th, (they have little regard for this one) 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments.

So if they were given the order to kick in doors and take guns, they would carry that out with impunity.

Think I am over reacting? Look up New York City Police Department’s stop-and-frisk program. How many LEO's in NYC quit when given the green light to violate the 4th Amendment? Or was it they were ignorant of Terry v Ohio.....?

Agreed. Not many wouldn't do what they were told to do, no matter how unconstitutional. Maybe some would slow-comply, and a precious few might resign, but not enough to make any difference.

(Those on this board are probably not representative of the general run of policemen.)