quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:
NTSB Blames it for a plane crash

Seriously! Someone just decided to add oil to aircraft engine fuel‽

A lot of somebodies. MMO has been a popular additive in certain circles for a long, long time. Much, much lower concentrations, and not in Lycoming engines.

For a long time aircraft fuel was also added to oil at shutdown in cold climates, as part of a factory oil dilution system, though most of those have been removed now.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:
Yep and tgey were bad at math too as dumping a quart into an 18 gal tank isn’t 1 part per hundred.

The report indicates that the operator had a policy of adding a quart of MMO with each refueling, which did not establish a fuel ration, but a gradual increase in the concentration of MMO in the fuel. The NTSB report also states that the MMO concentration in one fuel tank was close to 75%, which is 3/4 of the liquid in the tank was not fuel, but Marvel Mystery Oil.

The report also states that the engine had very low compression, and severe blow-by at the valve guides, as well as damage from detonation. When the mixture in the engine is altered significantly with fuel additives, detonation can occur at high power settings, accounting for the damage. The valve guide wear is typically the cause of high oil consumption in those engines, as well as compression loss, and coincidentally is the reason that some older owners/operators chose to add MMO...to reduce oil consumption and to lubricate the valves. In this case it proved to be exactly the wrong choice, on several levels.

quote:

Originally posted by SigJacket:
But has anyone personal experience with adding it to engine oil?

Yes. Extensively.

Generally adding a product like Marvel Mystery Oil to most fluids is a poor idea (as are most additives) unless specifically approved. This is true of engine oils, and certainly fuels, each of which are formulated for their application without additives. Most additives sold for cars are junk, and some like Slick 50, have proven very damaging. Throwing parts into MMO, or adding it indiscriminately to fuel, oil, brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant, or other applications, is not a good idea, and using these along with seafoam and other products is at best "junk science," with no tangible benefit. In particular, even if added and the "tapping" appears to stop, it's far too easy to imagine that the wrong thing has occurred, and that something positive has happened. Just because you don't hear a sound, doesn't mean that what you think occurred, actually happened.

When tapping stops, you might think it's because valve guides have been lubricated by the additive, for example, when in fact that's not the case, and the tapping wasn't the valve guides, but spalling cam shafts and clicky lifters, or improper adjustment of tappets, etc. It maybe that the parts were already receiving insufficient lubrication and need mechanical attention, perhaps damaged due to buildup in oil galleys or passages, and the "quieting effect" is tangential to adding your seafoam or MMO...but hasn't fixed the problem, and perhaps has made it worse (by circulating debris that was trapped, or masking the actual problem as damage accrues). At best, the use of such products in most cases is a matter of out of sight, out of mind...until the component, engine, system, pump, valve train, etc, fails...catastrophically.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Throwing parts into MMO, or adding it indiscriminately to fuel, oil, brake fluid, power steering fluid, coolant, or other applications, is not a good idea, and using these along with seafoam and other products is at best "junk science," with no tangible benefit. In particular, even if added and the "tapping" appears to stop, it's far too easy to imagine that the wrong thing has occurred, and that something positive has happened. Just because you don't hear a sound, doesn't mean that what you think occurred, actually happened.

When tapping stops, you might think it's because valve guides have been lubricated by the additive, for example, when in fact that's not the case, and the tapping wasn't the valve guides, but spalling cam shafts and clicky lifters, or improper adjustment of tappets, etc. It maybe that the parts were already receiving insufficient lubrication and need mechanical attention, perhaps damaged due to buildup in oil galleys or passages, and the "quieting effect" is tangential to adding your seafoam or MMO...but hasn't fixed the problem, and perhaps has made it worse (by circulating debris that was trapped, or masking the actual problem as damage accrues). At best, the use of such products in most cases is a matter of out of sight, out of mind...until the component, engine, system, pump, valve train, etc, fails...catastrophically.

Not so sure about the above. My experience differs.

About five years ago, my son's GM 4.3 liter almost threw a rod. The bearing was gone, and the rod was bouncing around on the crank. Instead of rebuilding that engine, I went to a wrecking yard and found a $500 4.3 out of an Astro van. After putting it on a stand, I stripped it down to a long block. After removing the intake, I noticed the oil galleys were full of sludge, as obviously the engined had suffered from inadequate maintenance. I also installed new rod bearings, and could see how much sludge was in the motor. I cleaned it up as best I could without disassembling it any further.

After installing the motor in the S10 and starting it up, it was tapping like hell. I thought I was going to have to pull it anyway, and had nothing to loose, so I threw a pint of Seafoam in the crank and let it idle 30 minutes. The new oil turned to a brown gravy during those 30 minutes, and the tapping ceased.

I drained the crank, installed a new filter and refilled with oil. After that treatment, no Seafoam was ever added to the crank again, just normal oil changes. He drove that vehicle for four more years, about 50,000 miles, and it was still purring when he sold it about six months ago. I suspect that the lifters were gummed up, and the Seafoam dissolved the sludge and got the lifters working correctly. In this instance, it worked like a champ.

In another instance a few years back, my Stihl 029 was suffering from some untreated ethanol fuel. It was running terribly, and wouldn't idle. I drained it and refilled it with fuel treated with a heavy dose of Seafoam. After about 10 minutes, the saw settled down and began running like a champ. It hasn't seen the inside of a repair shop in four years since.

I also treat my stored fuel with Seafoam. I recently found some four-year old fuel cans. The fuel smelled fine and I burned it without incident.

You may feel there is no scientific evidence for Seafoam's efficacy, but my own experience has shown impressive results. As far as I'm concerned, it is a product that lives up to its marketing. As for MMO, I don't have much recent experience with it, and your claims may be accurate. Also, I will say up front, that there's nothing in a can that can fix an underlying mechanical problem, so in that respect I agree with your post.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

Not so sure about the above. My experience differs.

About five years ago, my son's GM 4.3 liter almost threw a rod. The bearing was gone, and the rod was bouncing around on the crank. I went to a wrecking yard and found a $500 4.3 out of an Astro van. After putting it on a stand, I stripped it down to a long block. After removing the intake, I noticed the oil galleys were full of sludge, as obviously the engined had suffered from inadequate maintenance. I also installed new rod bearings, and could see how much sludge was in the motor. I cleaned it up as best I could without disassembling it any further.

After installing the motor in the S10 and starting it up, it was tapping like hell. I thought I was going to have to pull it anyway, and had nothing to loose, so I threw a pint of Seafoam in the crank and let it idle 30 minutes. The new oil turned to a brown gravy during those 30 minutes, and the tapping ceased.

I drained the crank, installed a new filter and refilled with oil. After that treatment, no Seafoam was ever added to the crank again, just normal oil changes. He drove that vehicle for four more years, about 50,000 miles, and it was still purring when he sold it about six months ago. I suspect that the lifters were gummed up, and the Seafoam dissolved the sludge and got the lifters working correctly. In this instance, it worked like a champ.

So...exactly what I just said.

It's one thing to run solvent through the engine then drain everything away. It's entirely different to dump a can of marvel mystery oil or seafoam into the engine, hear the sound change, and believe the problem is fixed...because it is NOT.

In your case, you started the process by breaking down the engine, cleaning and removing parts, used the product briefly then replaced the oil and drained the product away in the process, as well as changing filters. Very, very different than simply dumping in a can, hearing a change, and going on your merry way.

Very, very different.

When people hear the change and guess as to what it's done, believe it's solved their problems, and press on, they're hiding damage. These additives will NOT fix an engine and some of them like Slick 50, actually make it worse.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

Not so sure about the above. My experience differs.

About five years ago, my son's GM 4.3 liter almost threw a rod. The bearing was gone, and the rod was bouncing around on the crank. I went to a wrecking yard and found a $500 4.3 out of an Astro van. After putting it on a stand, I stripped it down to a long block. After removing the intake, I noticed the oil galleys were full of sludge, as obviously the engined had suffered from inadequate maintenance. I also installed new rod bearings, and could see how much sludge was in the motor. I cleaned it up as best I could without disassembling it any further.

After installing the motor in the S10 and starting it up, it was tapping like hell. I thought I was going to have to pull it anyway, and had nothing to loose, so I threw a pint of Seafoam in the crank and let it idle 30 minutes. The new oil turned to a brown gravy during those 30 minutes, and the tapping ceased.

I drained the crank, installed a new filter and refilled with oil. After that treatment, no Seafoam was ever added to the crank again, just normal oil changes. He drove that vehicle for four more years, about 50,000 miles, and it was still purring when he sold it about six months ago. I suspect that the lifters were gummed up, and the Seafoam dissolved the sludge and got the lifters working correctly. In this instance, it worked like a champ.

So...exactly what I just said.

It's one thing to run solvent through the engine then drain everything away. It's entirely different to dump a can of marvel mystery oil or seafoam into the engine, hear the sound change, and believe the problem is fixed...because it is NOT.

In your case, you started the process by breaking down the engine, cleaning and removing parts, used the product briefly then replaced the oil and drained the product away in the process, as well as changing filters. Very, very different than simply dumping in a can, hearing a change, and going on your merry way.

Very, very different.

When people hear the change and guess as to what it's done, believe it's solved their problems, and press on, they're hiding damage. These additives will NOT fix an engine and some of them like Slick 50, actually make it worse.

I guess we're saying the same thing. I've always seen products like Seafoam and MMO as a cleaner, not as an oil additive. I guess I never thought of these types of additives as a lubricant. That makes the "Oil" in the name Marvel Mystery Oil somewhat unfortunate. I think that's what you mean as well, so we're good.

I apologize for getting off the MMO topic a bit. Indulge me if you would.

Speaking of additives, the only other one I've ever considered is ZDDP added to my boat's 1989 351W motor. I'm worried about those flat tappets and the ever decreasing amounts of zinc, along with running around at >4000rpm all day long. I've been able to mollify my worries by using Valvoline racing oil up to this point, but I am worried that they may discontinue it someday if some jackwagon plugs up his catalyst with it and sues. There isn't a mountain of SF oils available down at the Walmart.

Is zinc/phosphorus additives needed in my old motor, or are synthetic oils alone enough to do the trick? These SM/SN oils leave me worried that I'll screw up my old motor, which isn't a cheap rebuild.

I add some to my Ed's Red cleaning solvent.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

Is zinc/phosphorus additives needed in my old motor, or are synthetic oils alone enough to do the trick? These SM/SN oils leave me worried that I'll screw up my old motor, which isn't a cheap rebuild.

I'd be more concerned with what it might do to your compression, plugs if you have any consumption, etc.

The only oils additives that aren't called out these days, but which I've found useful and have used in a wide range of engines, have been Lucas products and STP. I've used it in everything from automotive engines to large 28 cylinder air cooled radial engines.

I've never found a deleterious effect, and unlike solvents, it won't lead to scoring, washing of sludge to cause plugging, or numerous other problems that many additives cause. It tends to stay on surfaces long after shutdown, reducing start-up wear, and that's going to be the biggest problem you'll face over time with an engine, above operational use; what occurs in the moments prior during start and initial oil flow is some of the most damaging. Lucas and STP inhibit that by providing initial surface lubrication. They do tend to suspend particulates, which can be circulated to cause wear, but that's what filtration is for (whereas straight mineral oil allows some particulates to fall out (sludge). It doesn't suffer from thermal breakdown any more than the oil, is fully compatible, and blends. STP does have zinc, too.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
I don’t know why you would put a brake seal into that.
EP rubber isn’t compatible with that type of product just like Buna rubber will swell up and eventually break down in brake fluid.

I am in the process of tearing apart/cleaning/replacing parts on my 1980 Suzuki GS1100 motorcycle and everything is original so I soaked several of the parts that might have been a bit dried out..didn't really think about rubber parts expanding so much and have no idea of what Buna rubber is so I guess that shows you how much I know about rubber products
Interesting comments here and even at 65 I'm not to old to learn something new.

quote:

Originally posted by bcereuss:
I’ve never added it to oil, but use it to fog the boat engines for winter layup.

14 years, so far, so good!

I use 2 cycle oil for fogging. If the above MMO ingredients list is true, why would you want Stoddard solvent in your preservative mix?

I used it years ago, as advised by a mechanic, when I rebuilt the head on my Toyota HiLux,

just poured a quart over the head before I installed the valve cover,

ran it a few thousand miles, (maybe 2) and changed the oil, just using oil (no MMO that time)

truck ran fine

quote:

Originally posted by pbslinger:
No petroleum on brake parts

When I re-installed the pistons in the calipers I was very careful and lightly lubed the seals (the new ones)only with brake fluid and knew about the rule above....for some reason my brain didn't equate seals as brake parts.
I'm going to go ahead and pull all my calipers back off and install new pads just in case I did get some Marvels on them from handling.

My Suzuki is a 1980 with 3,785 miles on it and the pads looked like new..always been stored inside and obviously I have not ridden it much since purchased new. The old girl needed a good cleaning so I giving it a DEEP DEEP cleaning and painting tank and frame....going two tone on the tank and side covers.

DSC01747 (1024x683) (1024x683) (800x534)

IMG_8139 (800x600)

Back in another life when I was involved with pneumatic tools, we used it to flush them out. Put about an oz right in the inlet, reconnect the air line and run the tool until there is no more mist from the exhaust. About 1 - 2 minutes depending on the size of the tool and if was a vane type or piston. Piston motors took longer to flush. This worked very well and you could hear the air motor accelerate with the addition of MMO. Never had an issue with o-rings and such.

I don't think I'd add this or most other over the counter additives to today's autos. Too much of their performance is dependent on computerized controls (ECU) which can easily be thrown off with changing fluids.

quote:

Originally posted by SummersAtTheLake:

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
I don’t know why you would put a brake seal into that.
EP rubber isn’t compatible with that type of product just like Buna rubber will swell up and eventually break down in brake fluid.

I am in the process of tearing apart/cleaning/replacing parts on my 1980 Suzuki GS1100 motorcycle and everything is original so I soaked several of the parts that might have been a bit dried out..didn't really think about rubber parts expanding so much and have no idea of what Buna rubber is so I guess that shows you how much I know about rubber products
Interesting comments here and even at 65 I'm not to old to learn something new.

Most O rings are black and look like rubber. They are not all the same and are formulated for specific purposes.

Buna is a common type that can and is used as an oil seal and for some other purposes. Stick it in brake fluid and it will swell up in a few days and eventually break down completely.

Viton is another and is formulated for high temperatures and types of harsh chemicals.

EP or ethylene-propylene is the type used in brake fluid.

All are good when used for the purpose they are designed for but can fail quickly if used incorrectly. There are lots of guides that you can find with a search.

Don't feel too bad, SummersAtTheLake, I've seen some people that think they are very good and experienced mechanics do a lot worse.

quote:

Speaking of additives, the only other one I've ever considered is ZDDP added to my boat's 1989 351W motor. I'm worried about those flat tappets and the ever decreasing amounts of zinc, along with running around at >4000rpm all day long. I've been able to mollify my worries by using Valvoline racing oil up to this point, but I am worried that they may discontinue it someday if some jackwagon plugs up his catalyst with it and sues. There isn't a mountain of SF oils available down at the Walmart.

Is zinc/phosphorus additives needed in my old motor, or are synthetic oils alone enough to do the trick? These SM/SN oils leave me worried that I'll screw up my old motor, which isn't a cheap rebuild.

BG MOA is the stuff for an older flat tappet engine or any engine without a catalytic converter. I run a can in 5 qts. of Mobil 1.

The zinc wear additive was removed from the major consumer brands because of long term harm to the converter. The newer replacement additives work ok but not for an older engine in my opinion.

https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/engine/bg-moa/