quote:

To my recollection, a passenger has never taken over the controls, on a US carrier, for an incapacitated pilot.

From the article I posted:
“It is believed a British off-duty pilot was among the saviours.“

How this incident isn’t get more coverage is disgusting. Absolute bravery among those men and the fact there were 2 off duty pilots on board to land the plane is unreal. I was just reading about the crew members trying to intervene and get the terrorist pilot untied. Investigate everyone working on that plane!

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:
For our big bird pilots here: What would you put the odds on a single engine prop pilot being able to land a 737?

(Not a “big bird pilot”, biggest thing I’ve flown is a C90 King Air), but I’ll hazard a guess that a private pilot single engine land would have a significant advantage over a non pilot (ATC communications, understanding of the basic concepts), but would still have a heck of a challenge on their hands. Power management is different (turbofan engines may take longer to spool up on power addition where a piston driven propeller is almost instantaneous), there is a whole lot more mass, and I’d guess a lot more inertia. Add to the differences that there might be just a little bit of stress as it is not just your life that depends on how well you do, but also any family that is onboard with you but also a whole planeload of your new best friends.

Oh, another consideration - how fast things happen. When I first checked out in the Pitts S2-B, it was quite the adjustment. After learning in and being used to “coming over the fence” (crossing the threshold and beginning the flare) in airplanes at 50 something to a max of 70 something the S2-B required picking up my pace when coming over the fence at 100 mph. Now, one of my favorite things is power off abeam the numbers, keep turning right into the flare, cross the threshold up to 30 degrees bank around 50’ agl at 100 mph with a sink rate well over 1000 fpm. It took a while to get there. I don’t know what a 737 comes over the fence at, but 120-140 knots wouldn’t surprise me. That’s faster than I’m used to thinking, even flying the Pitts. If your hypothetical PPSEL had only ever flown Cessna 150s, he or she would be trying to land at speeds faster than they had ever cruised or even dived.

I’m not saying they’d have no chance, but I would be extremely impressed if they pulled it off.

It would take a lot of luck for a private pilot C172 driver to successfully land a Boeing 737. He might figure out how to get it trimmed for mostly straight and level, or making a gentle level turn if the aircraft were already stable straight and level. But getting it down to the airport arrival and then successfully onto the runway is a big leap in skill and technique compared to a light single engine airplane.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
It would take a lot of luck for a private pilot C172 driver to successfully land a Boeing 737. ...

Totally agree
C152 and 172 driver with 600 hours

quote:

For our big bird pilots here: What would you put the odds on a single engine prop pilot being able to land a 737?

It's an entirely different kind of flying, all together.

What is security like for the pilots? How did he get a weapon on board?

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
What is security like for the pilots? How did he get a weapon on board?

He didn’t have to get anything on board. He reportedly used the aircraft’s onboard cockpit “crash axe” that is required to be on the flight deck (according to AI).

Looks like it’s time to get rid of human pilots. Until, of course, our AI masters decide that the long metal tube behind the cockpit is full of dangerous, but soft and easily disposed-of life forms.

That answers that question. Thanks.

quote:

Looks like it’s time to get rid of human pilots. Until, of course, our AI masters decide that the long metal tube behind the cockpit is full of dangerous, but soft and easily disposed-of life forms.

Crash axe:

So this incident is very interesting. After 9/11 the debate was considering arming flight deck personal. How does this incident impact that argument?

Background checks. The gou was a known radical who could not get a job (or certification and the job) in his native country.

It will be interesting to see what the knee-jerk reaction will be. Whatever it is, there will be an accompanying new vulnerability.

I have seen posts on Facebook of people questioning the validity of this incident with questions. I saw this posted on Facebook and wanted to share. God Bless

You can believe the FACTS or not, it is up to you.

1. "How did he get a weapon onboard?"
The Fact: He didn't sneak a knife past security. The official UAE investigation report confirmed the co-pilot used the cockpit’s own crash axe. By international law, a crash axe is a mandatory piece of emergency equipment standard-stored inside the cockpit. He simply reached over and grabbed the plane's own tool to launch the attack.

2. "Why did a plumber take control and not the 2 pilots?"
The Fact: This is completely scrambling the timeline. When the bleeding captain unlocked the door, passengers rushed in to wrestle the attacker. Passenger Yaniv Hayoun (the plumber) saw the plane diving, lunged forward, and pulled back on the yoke to level the aircraft based on what he'd seen on Air Crash Investigation. The two deadheading reserve pilots in the cabin then immediately entered the flight deck, assumed formal control of the instruments, and safely navigated the aircraft to Tabuk, Saudi Arabia.

3. "How did the Capt open the door while being stabbed?"
The Fact: He didn't casually stand up and twist a mechanical doorknob. Captain Smit Machchhar explicitly stated in his interview that he was on the floor bleeding when he realised the plane was plunging. Knowing lives were at stake, he gathered his strength for one final push to hit the electronic door override release switch right next to the seat console, unlocking it so the cabin crew and passengers could rush in.

4. "Where are the oxygen masks?"
The Fact: This is an embarrassing failure of basic systems knowledge. Emergency oxygen masks are triggered strictly by cabin barometric pressure, not by pitch, dives, or sudden altitude drops. Because the fuselage was perfectly intact, the cabin never lost air density or pressure. The aircraft computer had absolutely zero mechanical reason to deploy the masks.

5. "Why was he speaking English to Bibi / in bloody clothes?"
The Fact: The plumber, Yaniv Hayoun, is an Israeli citizen. When Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called him to thank him for saving the flight, they spoke in Hebrew, not English. As for the blood-soaked shirt, he spent hours being interviewed by Saudi security and medical teams at Tabuk Airport immediately after landing. He was a passenger in transit who had just wrestled a bleeding attacker in a cockpit—he didn’t have a fresh change of clothes packed in his carry-on bag.

6. “Why were all the screens off?”
The Fact: Flydubai is a low-cost carrier. A massive portion of their economy cabins don't even feature seatback entertainment screens, or they are entirely deactivated behind a corporate paywall unless a passenger pays to unlock them. Even on aircraft with screens, when a commercial plane undergoes a violent, uncommanded 14,000-foot altitude plunge, the aircraft's automated electrical computers instantly initiate load-shedding. The plane immediately cuts power to all non-essential luxury systems (like passenger TVs, galley ovens, and seat outlets) to ensure 100% of the electrical grid is dedicated strictly to the cockpit displays, flight instruments, and backup hydraulic pumps keeping the plane from breaking apart.

OTHER DEBUNKED FALLACIES

* The 'Unbreakable' Door: Nobody broke it down. The official investigation logs prove that the hero captain, Smit Machchhar, manually hit the electronic cockpit override switch to unlock the door from the inside so passengers could rush in and save his life.

* The 'Spare Pilots' Fail: Off-duty flight crew traveling as passengers is a daily industry routine called 'deadheading.' Repositioning reserve crews to major hubs like Tel Aviv happens every single day. They didn't stage a fight; they stepped in to land the plane after regular passengers restrained the attacker.”

(Mark Rowley on X)

quote:

Originally posted by cas: It's an entirely different kind of flying, all together.

One of the best pieces of advice I got from an instructor at the -767 training center was "Think of flying this size of airplane more as mass management than flying. It's not as nimble as your F-18." (I was still flying the Hornet in the Reserves at the time.)

While not the size of a -767, the -737 still requires a "Mass Management" philosophy to ensure the airplane is in the correct piece of sky at the correct altitude, speed, heading, and configuration. The bigger the airplane the further out one needs to think about how to get the airplane from the place and state that it's currently in to where it needs to be in the future. Turns, descents, and airspeed changes all happen more slowly than GA aircraft and must be anticipated well ahead of the airplane. That said, I was always impressed how well the big airplanes actually flew. I always marveled how turning left flying the Canarsie Departure (Runway 31 L/R - JFK) could easily be made with with just two fingers and a thumb on the yoke.

All that being said, I think a GA non-instrument rated pilot might be able to pull off a -737 landing during the day with great weather, a good talk-down and Divine Intervention. The more experience and ratings would increase the chances. Night and/or weather would greatly decrease the chances.

quote:

Knowing lives were at stake, he [the captain] gathered his strength for one final push to hit the electronic door override release switch right next to the seat console, unlocking it so the cabin crew and passengers could rush in.

It was extremely fortunate that he was able to, or else we'd be reading "lost with all aboard."

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
So this incident is very interesting. After 9/11 the debate was considering arming flight deck personal. How does this incident impact that argument?

Wasn't just considered, it was implemented. It's known as the Federal Flight Deck Officer program, run by the Air Marshals and still in effect today. Pilots, navigators, and flight engineers can volunteer, pass a federal background investigation and psych evaluation, then go through some federal firearms training and get a limited federal law enforcement deputization by Homeland Security and carry a Glock 19 when on duty.

But that wouldn't have helped here, since the FFDO program only applies to American pilots on airlines based in the US. This wasn't an American airline. It was an airline out of the United Arab Emirates.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/...5TRFCpQ9WZuRujZ7Y%3D

Israel Suspects Flydubai Co-Pilot Planned to Crash Plane Into Airport or US Military Base

Israeli security officials say the co-pilot’s backup plan was to crash the Flydubai plane into a U.S. military base in Jordan if he could not make it to Israel.

Israel says the investigation into the co-pilot who attempted to take control of a Flydubai flight from the United Arab Emirates to Israel on Sept. 30 has raised suspicions that he intended to turn the aircraft into a weapon and fly it into Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv.
Senior Israeli security officials have told Epoch Magazine Israel that Hammam al-Hammami, an Omani national, had visited Israel in June and originally planned to carry out a suicide attack during that trip.

The following month, he planned the aircraft hijacking attack, but postponed it because, according to security officials, he felt sorry for one of the crew members, whom he knew personally.

The officials said that on Sept. 30, al-Hammami deliberately waited until Flight FZ 1073, which had 174 mainly Israeli passengers on board, reached the Jordan–Saudi Arabia border area before attempting to seize control.

Planned to Pose as Routine Flight

His intention was allegedly to continue flying toward Israel as though it were a routine flight, reach Ben Gurion Airport, and then crash the aircraft into the airport grounds, officials said.

If he was unable to reach Israel, his backup plan was to crash into a U.S. military base in Jordan, the officials added.

It was not immediately clear whether al-Hammami has legal representatives who could comment on his behalf.

The UAE prosecutor general said on Oct. 3 that al-Hammami attacked the captain, Smit Machchhar, with a crash axe and tried to seize control of the aircraft in an attempted terrorist act.
The plane dropped nearly 14,000 feet in less than 30 seconds during the cockpit struggle, terrifying those on board.

Machchhar told Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during an Oct. 2 video call that he managed to save the plane after a struggle with al-Hammami.
“I knew that the aircraft was going down ... I had fallen to the ground,” Smit Machchhar told Modi, “I told myself that the door is right there, ‌just open ⁠it. I managed to do it, and people entered.”

After passengers and crew entered the cockpit and overpowered the co-pilot, two reserve pilots on board took control of the aircraft and requested permission to land in Jordan.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Oct. 1 that it was very likely the co-pilot intended to crash the plane and everyone on board, in an echo of 9/11.
“The attacker, the co-pilot who attacked the captain, is now being interrogated, but here’s what we do know: First, we know that he underwent Islamist radical indoctrination,” Netanyahu said in a Fox News interview.

Netanyahu said the co-pilot shouted “Kill me” after he was subdued by the passengers and crew members, adding that it was “clear he was suicidal.”

Netanyahu has said pilots from countries with which Israel has no diplomatic relations, such as Oman, are not permitted in the cockpits of flights to or from Israel.

It is unclear how al-Hammami ended up on the Dubai-Tel Aviv route, and Netanyahu has ordered a review of foreign airline crews flying to or from Israel.

A counterterrorism ⁠unit in Australia is investigating al-Hammami’s links to the country after it emerged he was once enrolled at RMIT University in Melbourne.

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
What is security like for the pilots? How did he get a weapon on board?

My understanding is that the haji used the fire ax in the pilot compartment - not a small knife.
The ax is there to help escape the aircraft should there be a need.
No small knife would have caved in the Pilot's head which was done, but an ax...