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posted
If you were in Iraq or Afghanistan, how many rifles did you normally carry on your tank? (Not the machine guns mounted on the tank?

Thanks
 
Posts: 2261 | Location: Lawrenceburg, In | Registered: May 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too old to run,
too mean to quit!
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Cannot speak for Afghanistan, but when I was in the 3rd armored division, tank crews carried carbines. 30 Caliber. Not much room in those vehicles for anything other than tank and machine gun ammo. Given carbines have been removed from service, I would guess that all tank crews now carry M4s.


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 25656 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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.

Former Harrier Pilot now with Guard Tank Battalion as Forward Air Controller working from inside an Abrams told me:

Each tank was assigned as personal crew weapons:
1 M16A2 5.56mm rifle with 210 rounds
4 9mm pistols with 400 rounds
8 M67 hand grenades

He also sent this over:
www.Marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP%203-12%20Marine%20Corps%20Tank%20Employment.pdf

Then he asked if I wanted him to set me up with a recruiter Big Grin

.
 
Posts: 2873 | Location: San Diego, CA  | Registered: July 14, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
E tan e epi tas
Picture of cslinger
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400 rounds for the beretta’s???? Seems an odd number of rounds? Does that mean there is some loose ammo? I would think it would be 420 rounds for 7 mags a gun or 360 rounds for 6 mags a gun?

400 rounds comes out to like 26 mags and a handful of loose no??


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 8039 | Location: On the water | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by cslinger:
400 rounds for the beretta’s???? Seems an odd number of rounds? Does that mean there is some loose ammo? I would think it would be 420 rounds for 7 mags a gun or 360 rounds for 6 mags a gun?

400 rounds comes out to like 26 mags and a handful of loose no??


It's a matter of unit of issue for the rounds. I can only speak for Army, but I believe Army/USMC use a similar system.
Non-belted 5.56mm comes cases containing ammo cans of 840 rounds. Each can contains four bandolieers containing 210 rounds of 5.56mm ammo on stripper clips. So each tank gets one bandoleer (210) for their rifle. 210 rounds is also the basic load for an M4/M16.

9mm ammo (M882) is issued in a 1000 round ammo can consisting of 20 50 round boxes. So they probably just get hand 8 boxes or 9mm for the tank.

It's just an easy way to break it out and turn it in I suppose.

What's interesting is the basic load for an M9 pistol is 45 rounds (3 mags) (in the Army anyway) so the tank is carrying over twice the basic load for the pistols, but only 1 basic load for the rifle.

Hopefully one of our USMC members can give us better info.
 
Posts: 4845 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I’m fairly certain that USMC tank crews would have M4 carbines.

I liked what the Bundeswehr (German Army) tank crews carried while I was stationed there in the 90’s: they rocked Uzi’s


 
Posts: 35244 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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^^^^

I would hope so by now! It always perplexed me how long the Corps stubbornly held on to their 20" barreled fixed stock "muskets." Roll Eyes

In the other thread about what optics SF are running, they are choosing M4s and low-power variables for the 300m+ engagements in A-stan and still have a good weapon for CQB.

I think MK18s would be perfect for tank crews, but I know that ain't gonna happen.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

Be harder to kill: https://preparefit.ck.page
 
Posts: 5043 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Each tank was assigned as personal crew weapons:
1 M16A2 5.56mm rifle with 210 rounds
4 9mm pistols with 400 rounds
8 M67 hand grenades


4 crew members, one long gun, probably for the tank commander who also gets a 9mm pistol And 2 hand grenades per crew member.

Does not sound like a good plan to me.

Tanks break down, tank retrievers take a while to get there to repair/retrieve dead tank. How are the crew supposed to protect themselves if this happens in enemy territory?

Frankly, I am not impressed. I spent nearly 10 years in the 3rd armored division. My "philosophy may be outdated, but I would not be happy with that set of personal armament.


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 25656 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Glorious SPAM!
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USMC tankers are each issued an M9 and an M4. Yes tanks break down but they never travel alone. The ALWAYS travel with their wingman. Two tanks to a section two sections to a platoon. If one goes down the wingman provides security until help arrives.

Man it's been a while but I think they used to be issued M9's for personals and then 1 M16 for the vehicle. That changed and now they get both. They even added brackets in the vehicle for each crewman to store his M4.

The vehicle also has a .50 and two M240's that can all be sighted and fired without electrical power. And they carry ALOT of ammo for those lol.
 
Posts: 10647 | Registered: June 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too old to run,
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quote:
Man it's been a while but I think they used to be issued M9's for personals and then 1 M16 for the vehicle. That changed and now they get both. They even added brackets in the vehicle for each crewman to store his M4.


Glad to hear this!!


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 25656 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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Even if the tank was alone and the couldn't hop on another vehicle, the tank has the commanders .50 M2, and usually the loader has a .30 MG. I think either can be fired manually. If the tank is stuck, loses a track, they can still have power to he turret, in which case they have the coax .30 MG, and, of course, the main gun. I bet the loaders gun is dismountable if they have to go on foot.

quote:
Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
quote:
Each tank was assigned as personal crew weapons:
1 M16A2 5.56mm rifle with 210 rounds
4 9mm pistols with 400 rounds
8 M67 hand grenades


4 crew members, one long gun, probably for the tank commander who also gets a 9mm pistol And 2 hand grenades per crew member.

Does not sound like a good plan to me.

Tanks break down, tank retrievers take a while to get there to repair/retrieve dead tank. How are the crew supposed to protect themselves if this happens in enemy territory?

Frankly, I am not impressed. I spent nearly 10 years in the 3rd armored division. My "philosophy may be outdated, but I would not be happy with that set of personal armament.
 
Posts: 21240 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
I liked what the Bundeswehr (German Army) tank crews carried while I was stationed there in the 90’s: they rocked Uzi’s


Since replaced by the HK MP 7 for commander and loader; gunner and driver carry P 8 (9 mm USP). As BBMW points out, if the crew really has to abandon the tank, they can always dismount the MG 3 from the loader's hatch, and I think an additional buttstock is carried on German tanks for the coax MG to pull it out and put to the same use.
 
Posts: 2474 | Location: Berlin, Germany | Registered: April 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Three on, one off
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quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
^^^^

I would hope so by now! It always perplexed me how long the Corps stubbornly held on to their 20" barreled fixed stock "muskets."


The reluctance to part with the full length rifle might have been in part because of the Marine Corps’ tradition of excellence with close order drill. The discipline and unit cohesion COD builds is proven, but not easy to do with carbines.
 
Posts: 4472 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 03, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Charmingly unsophisticated
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Dated info, by the KY ARNG tank company I was in had one M16A2 and 4 M9s per tank. Rifle only came out if that tank had to put a dismounted LP/OP out. No "dismount kit" for the M240s though, which would have been a nice touch.


_______________________________

The artist formerly known as AllenInWV
 
Posts: 16270 | Location: Harrison, AR | Registered: February 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I remember my FIL telling me that in WW2 he had a Thompson. They took it away from him and gave him the grease gun. He was not happy about it
 
Posts: 1509 | Registered: November 07, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm sure part of this logic was doctrine of wanting the crew to stay with the tank. The tank should be with other tanks and infantry. The crew has the main gun, 50cal / 30 cal weapons. Even if they throw a tread, the tank's weapons work. At least in a more conventional war scenario.

Understandably they probably got more weapons / carbines / etc during urban conflicts / GWOT where a typical vehicle mounted weapon may not be able to traverse / engage at very high angles and it's not always a 'shooting' conflict with civies close by / etc.
 
Posts: 45798 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by G-Man:
quote:
Originally posted by Strambo:
^^^^

I would hope so by now! It always perplexed me how long the Corps stubbornly held on to their 20" barreled fixed stock "muskets."


The reluctance to part with the full length rifle might have been in part because of the Marine Corps’ tradition of excellence with close order drill. The discipline and unit cohesion COD builds is proven, but not easy to do with carbines.

Or their tradition of qualing at 500 yards on scored targets with irons. Or the possibility that USMC actually drove the M16A2 program. Or budget reasons, intuitional inertia, etc. Will the Marines are good at drilling, they spend a lot of time practicing fighting.
 
Posts: 4845 | Location: Where ever Uncle Sam Sends Me | Registered: March 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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