On Facebook I belong to a WW2 B-24 page. My FIL flew them in WW2 and occasionally I have useful information to add.

It's claimed, that due to the low temps at altitude the Browning fifties were NOT LUBED. I understand low temps turning oil to molasses, etc.

But I have a tough time believing a BMG would stand for thousands of rds DRY. I've tried to search the net....NO joy.

Anyone with some learned input?

FN in MT

I recall reading years ago that the guns had about 30 seconds or less worth of ammo, so it couldn't have been all that much. (and that may have been 1919's in 30-06, since it was all about weight, 50's might have been less)

Maybe they wore out quickly compared to others.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
I recall reading years ago that the guns had about 30 seconds or less worth of ammo, so it couldn't have been all that much. (and that may have been 1919's in 30-06, since it was all about weight, 50's might have been less)

Maybe they wore out quickly compared to others.

I don't know about the lube, but do know the Browning 50s only had a 600 round ammo belt per gun on the bombers.

quote:

Originally posted by FN in MT:
On Facebook I belong to a WW2 B-24 page. My FIL flew them in WW2 and occasionally I have useful information to add.

It's claimed, that due to the low temps at altitude the Browning fifties were NOT LUBED. I understand low temps turning oil to molasses, etc.

But I have a tough time believing a BMG would stand for thousands of rds DRY. I've tried to search the net....NO joy.

Anyone with some learned input?

FN in MT

I was on a B-17 w my dad a few months ago here's the guns that were mounted.

I've read the Germans used synthetic oils back then. Mineral based lubes tended to not work at high altitudes. Or maybe they lubed them with graphite, like locks.

at between 750-850 I think firing one with little to no lube at altitude wouldn't make them wear out any faster than other M2's.

they certainly didn't carry that much ammo to ear one down within one trip and the armorers took care of them when the planes returned and benched the ones that were worn down.

Gun heaters were used. Clipped onto the top cover, it was an electrical heater to keep the lube warm:

http://www.bmgparts.com/products/largeheater.jpg

http://www.bmgparts.com/aircraft.html

Here's a link that shows how 50's were mounted on B-24's and shows a heater mounted on a gun:

http://www.questmasters.us/B-24_Waist_Guns.html

/\/\/\

That makes sense.

Page 2-11
Lubrications.
Use cleaner, lubricant, preservative to clean the
machine gun. As its name implies, it cleans, lubricates, and preserves all in
one application.
(1) After cleaning the gun with CLP, wipe it dry and reapply a thin
coating. Allow this thin coat to dry on the parts for a short time before
reassembly. CLP deposits a thin coating on the metal which minimizes
carbon buildup and prevents foreign material from sticking. It is this
coating that provides the frictionless operation of the weapon parts, not
liquid oil deposited on them. A gun treated with CLP will operate better
and remain clean longer than one treated with any other cleaning
material. Use of CLP will reduce maintenance costs and extend the life of
the weapon.
(2) Rifle bore cleaner is a cleaning solvent which can be used to clean
powder residue, carbon, and dirt from weapons. RBC does not preserve or
lubricate a weapon. If you clean a weapon with RBC, dry the weapon and
lubricate it with lubricating oil, semifluid (LSA); lubricating oil, special
purpose (PL-S); or lubricating oil, general purpose (PL-M). The use of
these oils will cause sand or grit to stick to the weapon. RBC and oil
should be used only when CLP is not available.
Per: http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/othe...M23-65C2%2802%29.pdf

I went to my B-17 source on this one. My Dad was the engineer on a B-17 crew during WWII, so he was also the upper turret gunner.

He says that cold was a big problem for everything on the plane. There were no heaters for the 50s at that time (1944), so they put Army-issue gun oil on very sparingly and then wiped it off.

They also removed and cleaned their own guns and stored them on racks in a gun shack near the plane. Before the next mission the crew carried them back to the plane and reinstalled them.

I doubt CLP was around during WWII.

The original military lubes, ( pre-CLP days ) are LSA, LAW, etc. RBC, ( Rifle Bore Cleaner ) was the cleaning agent of choice, ( and is still an excellent cleaner. )

Now, as far as what, ( if anything ) was used in the bomber's .50s, I would be interested in finding out.

When I get the time, I'll try and drop by the Mighty Eighth Air Force Museum here and see if I can find out and/or possibly speak with one of the WWII guys who frequent the museum. They have a restored B17 on display inside.

listen guys, there is a PMS for everything...every- thing....for anything in the service...from pins in the folding bridge that are used to span bridges to changing the oil in a HUMMER to the particular battery in a 25mm Bushmaster gun in a Bradley to the ..

so, believe that they had a proper, Preventative Maintenance Schedule that they followed...and it did clean the guns, and then told them to oil them and then said to; wipe off the oil (secretly leaving a little oil-even there at altitude) so the guns were not worn after one or two flights.....

Google it (3M)...the Navy and CG has figured it out and followed it since ...well, forever...the equipment costs more than the people....(sometimes)

I'll have to ask my grandfather about this next time I see him. He was flight engineer and top turret gunner on a B17 crew in 1943.

quote:

Originally posted by ARMT Guy:
I doubt CLP was around during WWII.

The original military lubes, ( pre-CLP days ) are LSA, LAW, etc. RBC, ( Rifle Bore Cleaner ) was the cleaning agent of choice, ( and is still an excellent cleaner. )

Now, as far as what, ( if anything ) was used in the bomber's .50s, I would be interested in finding out.

When I get the time, I'll try and drop by the Mighty Eighth Air Force Museum here and see if I can find out and/or possibly speak with one of the WWII guys who frequent the museum. They have a restored B17 on display inside.

You are right. The manual must be an older issue. This article says CLP was not developed until 1971.

https://www.cherrybalmz.com/history-the-cold-war--clp

I have this book but I have not found any information on cleaning procedures or what was used.

https://www.amazon.com/B-24-Co...ations/dp/1435112202

I'll try to remember to ask Dad when I see him later this week. He was a left waist gunner on the B-24.

I used to fly the navy version of the B-24 (PB4Y-2). The -4Y was, in the last year of the war, the most heavily armed aircraft of the war. When I flew them, we didn't have weapons aboard, and we didn't fly them very high (and there was no war). It still got bitter cold in the winter, however.

quote:

Originally posted by rburg:
I've read the Germans used synthetic oils back then. Mineral based lubes tended to not work at high altitudes. Or maybe they lubed them with graphite, like locks.

I was working at an VW/Porsche dealer in 1962 when a German product salesman came in to sell us on the idea of pushing Synthetic gear lube onto customers. He had the usual small fry pan and mineral gear lube and a hand egg beater. He heated up the mineral gear lube and it smoked and burned.

Next came the Synthetic gear lube into the fry pan. Heat on and no smoke, it just bubbled a
bit. Then came the egg beater into the Synthetic stuff and as he beat the oil it began to climb up the beater and onto his hands.

Stuff was expensive, as I recall about $2.00 bucks a pint at the time. Salesmen said more synthetic oils were coming from Germany.

That was in 1962.

quote:

Originally posted by Some Shot:
I went to my B-17 source on this one. My Dad was the engineer on a B-17 crew during WWII, so he was also the upper turret gunner.

He says that cold was a big problem for everything on the plane. There were no heaters for the 50s at that time (1944), so they put Army-issue gun oil on very sparingly and then wiped it off.

They also removed and cleaned their own guns and stored them on racks in a gun shack near the plane. Before the next mission the crew carried them back to the plane and reinstalled them.

Now THAT is information right from the source that would know. Thank You.

quote:

Originally posted by Some Shot:
I went to my B-17 source on this one. My Dad was the engineer on a B-17 crew during WWII, so he was also the upper turret gunner.

He says that cold was a big problem for everything on the plane. There were no heaters for the 50s at that time (1944), so they put Army-issue gun oil on very sparingly and then wiped it off.

They also removed and cleaned their own guns and stored them on racks in a gun shack near the plane. Before the next mission the crew carried them back to the plane and reinstalled them.

Very true - crews had to move to other planes occasionally due to maintenance/damage. The gunners were assigned their own guns, and were responsible for maintaining them. When they prepared to leave for a mission, the guns were moved from the storage building to the plane being used that day.

When Dad and I were in England in 2014, we visited the site where he flew from near Norwich. The original building used for briefings still stands, and is actually now inside a larger building and is used by the administrative staff of a tractor dealership. The larger building holds all their parts inventory.

We were shown an overview photo from about 25 years ago that showed all the buildings. There were two smaller buildings on there - one had been damaged in a storm after the photo and had to be demolished. They asked about the two buildings. Dad took one look at the photo and told them - the one that is still standing is where they maintained and trained on the bomb sights. The one that had been demolished had been where they stored the guns. The owner of the dealership was astounded that Dad could look and identify everything after almost 70 years.

Dad's bomber group is talking about a reunion in England in September 2018. I've talked to him about it, but am letting him decide if he wants to go again. We'll wait to decide until closer to the time as much can happen in a few months as you approach 100 years old.

quote:

Originally posted by Some Shot:
I went to my B-17 source on this one. My Dad was the engineer on a B-17 crew during WWII, so he was also the upper turret gunner.

He says that cold was a big problem for everything on the plane. There were no heaters for the 50s at that time (1944), so they put Army-issue gun oil on very sparingly and then wiped it off.

They also removed and cleaned their own guns and stored them on racks in a gun shack near the plane. Before the next mission the crew carried them back to the plane and reinstalled them.

Cool info.

And please pass my regards to your father. Those guys have always been my heroes.