quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by JR78:
RMR's = .40 S&W, it will eventually die off.

They will definitely go the way of plastic framed striker fired pistols. Flash in the pan.

Just like the internet. It’s a fad. Print media is where it’s at.

There's a lot to talk about here. I started a reply yesterday, and just ran out of time.

Optics are great enabler. They're going to let you see things in your shooting that you probably do not see with iron sights. That said, if you are not willing to accept that you have issues, and learn some of the nuances of shooting with an optic, it's going to be a rough ride. The most challenging part of the process is developing the discipline to acquire the dot on presentation, track it and recoil, and reacquire it after manipulation (reload, malfunction clearance, etc).

Too many people invest in an optic, immediately discover that they can hit better at distance with it, and then never develop the skills to be proficient at closer range. I did this initially when I bought my first optic gun in 2014 or so. I dove deep into the dot starting in about 2019 and figured it out. There are lots of good trainers out there that can get you on the right track. There is lots of YouTube stuff that might help. A lot of this work can be done in dry fire.

Why are optics better?

First of all, they're going to allow your eyes to work as intended - with binocular vision and target focus. The targeting scheme (single focal plane) is easier and more natural. People with vision issues generally see immediate improvements. For tens of thousands of years we developed to focus on what we were fighting. Iron sights initially appeared around the 1400s and traditional iron shooting (front sight focused) is heavily built around trying to break the tendency to focus on the target (note: very high level iron sight shooters shoot with target focus).

Next, the optic allows a much more precise aiming point. Even a larger 6 MOA dot is about a third of the size of a relatively fine iron sight. The combination of a fine aiming point and a single focal plane shooting experience lets you see a lot of what you're doing wrong. Many people with grip and trigger control issues simply do not see their sights move when shooting irons. It's nearly impossible to miss with a dot if you're willing to accept that it's not your gun.

There are limitations to optics. Glass breaks. Batteries die. Humidity exists. It rains. These are all things that are relatively manageable. I do not see failures of optics at a greater rate than I do iron sights (things move, Glock front sight screws get loose, fiber optics melt and fall out, tritium goes dead, etc). Slide mounted optics have more than proven themselves in durability and reliability. By a good one after doing your research, and you will be fine.

I also know that there are people who legitimately think this is a fad that is going away. The only thing that is going to significantly affect the popularity of slide-mounted Optics is a streamlined frame mounted optic solution. I think that is the next big leap, and it's going to take a couple of gun manufacturers spending a lot of money finding a way to make it work. The package is going to have to be no larger than what we have now.

I shot a Romeo on my 320 X-Carry. Chased the dot and slapping the trigger. After hundreds of rounds down range I gave up.

Actually got some range time with a instructor. I now definitely see the value of it.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:

quote:

Originally posted by JR78:
RMR's = .40 S&W, it will eventually die off.

They will definitely go the way of plastic framed striker fired pistols. Flash in the pan.

Just like the internet. It’s a fad. Print media is where it’s at.

Would one of you let me know if I should get rid my Betamax?

The only one I've used was on a buddy's PSA Dagger. I think it's the RDS that came as a pkg deal already installed.
It wasn't sighted in yet, but seemed quicker to get on target than regular iron sights.

None of my pistols are currently compatible, so it doesn't hold a lot of interest for me, but like my AR it's a nice add-on.

Not sure on carrying with one though. Would depend on what it was attached to & overall size, for me.
On the P320, I could see it working, but on something like my wife's LC9, I think it would be noticeably wider than the slide.

Who's going to go first for putting one on a NAA revolver?

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:
Would one of you let me know if I should get rid my Betamax?

That would be equivalent to a certain brand of red dot going away. That is certain to happen.

The concept of recording TV and movies on magnetic tape lasted several decades before being superseded by something better.

They take training to learn to use them properly. Many people are so used to irons that they aren’t willing to get out of their comfort zone. They try them a few times, feel icky, and give up on them. To each his own.

I have an EOTech EFLX on my rifle in an offset position. I like it for that, but haven’t had a lot of practice with one on a pistol yet. I’d e willing to give it a shot for a few months. I’m can see the possible benefits, but am a bit skeptical on the added bulk.

I guess I'll trend to the opposite side of many of the posts. Certainly there are great iron sighted shooters. I am not one of them at this point in my life and my eyes. Not in rifles nor pistols as my eyes have aged. There is not a chance I want anything but an optic on anything I shoot at this point seriously. Pistol, rifle, shotgun etc. I am faster and way more accurate. I have no issues carrying an optic pistol and do so every day. Yup they don't work 100% of the time in all conditions so the backup strategy is to have backup irons so you are no worse off than before, but my experience has been exceptional reliability over time. On an observational note I have seen shooters at our weekly steel matches who literally couldn't hit the plates go to nearly 100% success just by getting an optic. No they aren't stunning fast initially but the are accurate. Certainly there is a small learning curve, but really its on you. Your presentation simply cannot suck. Takes only a few tries for anyone competent to figure that out. Those that think we are going to give up on this simply need look at the rifle world where you are simply an idiot not to have an optic on your defensive rifle. Anyway lots of opinions but other than historic guns I've converted everything I shoot normally to an optic.

Some very good posts here,
I appreciate your sharing your perspective's

Thank you, it helps

quote:

Originally posted by myrottiety:
I shot a Romeo on my 320 X-Carry. Chased the dot and slapping the trigger. After hundreds of rounds down range I gave up.

Actually got some range time with a instructor. I now definitely see the value of it.

What you're describing sounds like two things:

1) Not being target focused. Dot movement is far, far worse if you focus on the dot. It can be tough not to. It takes disciplined practice.

2) Trying to snatch shots when the dot is exactly where you want it. This leads to poor trigger control. Accepting some level of "wobble zone" and manipulating the trigger in a manner consistent with the size, distance, and risk involved in the target fixes this.

It sounds like you're on the right track.

Thanks
Cookster great vid

My eyes are not good enough for the irons to work well anymore, but I have a hard time finding the dot sometimes.
The only thing that works for me is a low mount with coindexed irons.
This allows me to pick the dot up very quickly but with everything on the same optical plane now I can focus on both target and aiming point (dot).
The newer fully enclosed units remove the issues with rain/snow obscuring the projector so you can use them with both eyes open under all conditions. Battery life is about one year too, so that isn't really a concern.
This is really the way ahead.

Here's one from thehumblemarksman about Red Dot vs. Irons. My take is it's a lot like shooting a .22 after getting use to a 9mm. You start to notice a lot of other issues with your shooting for you to correct. I've also gotten faster because I'm not fighting focus between my target and my iron sights.

Where I've always had issues using iron sights is going out to ranges past 10 yards. Even with glasses, I'm still near sighted and aiming for a specific spot multiple times with irons was extremely difficult. With a dot, my groups have tightened up considerably.

As with all sights, I think Henry from 9 Hole Reviews sums it up best where sights won't make the gun more accurate, it'll make you see the target better, and that's what red dots have done for me.

I'll still leave this down here.