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Member |
Calling this "caseless" ammunition seems like a misnomer. It doesn't have a traditional brass case, no, but the "ammo block" is essentially a strong, funny-shaped case that holds five separate powder charges and projectiles. The "caseless" ammunition that people keep experimenting with and proclaiming to be the next big thing, and that then disappear without ever amounting to anything, are ONLY propellant and projectile, no container. This thing looks kind of like if you built a blackpowder revolver where you could just carry a bunch of cylinders and swap them out. There aren't any cases involved, but you still aren't touching powder and bullets when you reload it. I see accuracy being a big potential hurdle, between having to manage the projectile's jump between the ammo block and an actual barrel and having FIVE different barrels that have to be perfectly aligned. | |||
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| Freethinker |
I may be misinterpreting all that. I don’t see anything being ejected when the rifle is fired, so I assumed that the entire block was consumed when fired—with the obvious exceptions of the bullet and, presumably, the primer. But then it’s obvious that something must prevent ignition of the entire block if discharging only one round is selected/desired, so there must be something that separates them. Thanks for that observation. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Administrator |
Sure, it can put out 5 round at a time, but then you have to eject the blocks, which look to be about the size of a 20 round magazine (while only holding 5 rounds). I'm not against innovation, but I don't see this particular iteration of this idea being better than what we already have. | |||
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| Member |
I wasn't trying to endorse the concept. I agree with you, it's interesting but there are a lot of potential problems. | |||
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| Administrator |
I know that you weren't. I was just pointing out additional concerns. I don't believe the next step in firearms evolution is case-less ammunition in the traditional ignition/powder sense. I think we're at the point where beam weaponry or rail gun technology will be the next step (i.e. that we will leap over case-less ignition propelled projectiles right to magnetic propulsion, or to using no projectiles at all). | |||
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"Member" |
"It's time for a modern weapon"... based on an idea that was abandoned in the early 1800's.  _____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911. | |||
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| sick puppy |
Its Vice. No surprise there. To increase lethality, just shoot more bullets per trigger pull? This is pretty far fetched and dumb to me ____________________________ While you may be able to get away with bottom shelf whiskey, stay the hell away from bottom shelf tequila. - FishOn | |||
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| Member |
The problem with electricity-based weapons like that is one of energy density. In the context of weapons, energy is the capacity to damage a target, and a weapon is a tool for delivering energy to a target. The weapon needs to deliver enough energy to cause incapacitating injury or death, and a soldier needs to be able to carry enough energy to do that as many times as possible. Gunpowder has a pretty high energy density. Until pretty recently, the highest energy density electricity storage devices had something like 1/50th the energy density of gunpowder - meaning for an individual soldier to carry the same quantity of wounding capacity, he'd need 50 times the mass of batteries as compared to gunpowder. The very highest-performance current generation batteries have cut the gap down to something like 20-30% the energy density of gunpowder. Purely from an energy standpoint, we've gotten to the point now where it might be practical to build electrically powered small arms rather than chemical ones, at the cost of getting substantially fewer "shots" for the same amount of "ammunition." Presumably, battery technology will continue to improve, and at some point, electrical power will be competitive with chemical power for small arms use. There's also the potential to improve chemical-propellant weapons, though - there are chemical propellants that have a much higher energy density than gunpowder. | |||
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Wait, what? |
I’ve actually wondered why nobody has pursued a rail gun device; I suppose the biggest hurdle would be a man portable power source that could render hundreds of firings possible before a “power pack” needed to be replaced. Imagine some kind of force fed reservoir of hundreds of stainless ball shaped projectiles and a system that could accelerate them to hyper velocity. Hell, imagine a SAW laying down a withering hail of them? Rail gun tech is evolving rapidly, so it’s probably just a matter of time. “Remember to get vaccinated or a vaccinated person might get sick from a virus they got vaccinated against because you’re not vaccinated.” - author unknown | |||
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| Corgis Rock |
Caseless ammunition has been tried since WWII. It has problems: Heat sink. Fire conventional ammunition and the case picks up some of the heat and ejection takes it away. Caseless doesn’t do this and a “cook off” is very possible. Debris from incomplete ignition. Black powder muskets have a build up of unturned powder and debris. The barrels have to be cleaned. There’s no way you’re going to get 100% burn off. Last is reloading. It’s not going to happen in the field. Remember the clueless politiction that wanted to ban magazines? After the rounds were fired the magazines were useless? Same problem. “ The work of destruction is quick, easy and exhilarating; the work of creation is slow, laborious and dull. | |||
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| Member |
I believe in this case the battery is for activating the primer only, not power something like an electric rail gun (which the US Navy already has). Electric firing of primers has been around for decades. It was on Navy ships in the 1970’s and it wasn’t new then. As far as caseless ammunition, I personally spoke with an engineer today and the company he works for, on the east coast, is doing research right now on caseless ammunition for the military. I cannot imagine they are the only company doing this kind of study. It is plausible that any primer/ignition system may be consumed with each firing of the weapon, leaving an empty chamber once the bullet leaves. How to safely store, transport and waterproof such ammo would also be part of the research. | |||
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| The Ice Cream Man |
I have no idea of the use of it, but I always figured a "caseless" ammo could be made by making the old paper shell style shotgun shells, from nitrocellulose. | |||
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| Freethinker |
Making caseless ammunition is easy. I have two Ruger revolvers that use ammunition with no cases: All I must do is pour blackpowder into the chamber, seat a bullet on top, and place a cap on the nipple. Caseless ammunition, however, has several drawbacks. It must be durable enough to withstand the rigors of handling, transport, and storage under military combat conditions and the mechanical stresses of being cycled through automatic weapons. That also includes being durable enough to deal with the impact of the firing pin on the primer (assuming it’s not the electronic ignition that has its own hazards and drawbacks). It must also be safe. A case or pallet of the stuff can’t start burning and turn into an uncontrollable conflagration or explode if it’s exposed to fire, a spark, or flying ember from a warming fire—or someone’s cigarette. Another issue is accuracy. When conventional rifle ammunition is chambered, the bullet is positioned a small fraction of an inch from the rifling in the barrel, and that’s usually necessary for optimum accuracy. With caseless ammunition it may be difficult to reduce the distance the bullet must jump to engage the rifling. Another accuracy factor is the position of the bullet before the cartridge is fired. Maximum precision requires that the bullet be aligned with the bore as exactly as possible and that would be much more difficult to ensure if the bullet was molded in place within the propellant. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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Member |
Suppressive fire? Troops in the open? | |||
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Almost as Fast as a Speeding Bullet |
I think that I read somewhere that one potential advantage is against future enemies wearing plate armor inserts. They can stop rifle rounds, but will fail with multiple hits. I can't find that particular article, but I'm certain, that was mentioned as a particular scenario. ______________________________________________ Aeronautics confers beauty and grandeur, combining art and science for those who devote themselves to it. . . . The aeronaut, free in space, sailing in the infinite, loses himself in the immense undulations of nature. He climbs, he rises, he soars, he reigns, he hurtles the proud vault of the azure sky. — Georges Besançon | |||
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| Experienced Slacker |
If you thought you could get a shotgun to be as accurate at three hundred meters as it is at ten, along with rifle velocities, would you try it? Odds are the goal is out of reach, but the attempt is bound to produce some progress. | |||
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| Member |
This thing is silly. It reeks of a design solution to a problem imagined by someone without any military experience. In one video that I watched, the promotional speech mentions the fact that it feeds from essentially the equivalent of en block clips with a fixed magazine and the lack of a need to carry additional magazines as a positive feature. This is not a positive feature and has not been used on a military rifle since World War II. It is an interesting proof of concept, but sorely lacking as a military firearm in my opinion. --------------------------------------------- "AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald | |||
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| Gracie Allen is my personal savior! |
Maybe it's got applications for something like Puff the Magic Dragon. | |||
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| 10mm is The Boom of Doom  |
And pirate ships would lower their flags when Puff roared out his name. God Bless and Protect the Once and Future President, Donald John Trump. | |||
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Member |
 --------------------- DJT-45/47 MAGA !!!!! "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." — Mark Twain “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” — H. L. Mencken | |||
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