About a year ago I purchased a handgun through an online forum. It was shipped to my FFL and I took possession after the usual legally required process. My FFL received it from the seller and I took possession through them.

A few weeks ago I subsequently listed it for sale on the same forum I first bought it and another user purchased it. I shipped it to that users FFL for transfer to him. Today I got this message from the buyer:

“My ffl dealer took receipt of it today, but when he did his customary check (all used guns get the same check) it came back as having been previously reported stolen. The police were supposedly on their way to his place to dig into it further, but they had not yet arrived as of about 9pm. This is new ground for me, so I am waiting to see what they tell my dealer. I am not accusing you of having known anything. Merely keeping you in the loop as the police will likely reach out to you at some point if they determine that the gun was indeed stolen previously. I’ll let you know if I hear anything.”

Any advice as to what I should do other than NOT talk to the police without a lawyer? Also any recommendations on how to find a lawyer who would be qualified in this area?

There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO need for a lawyer.

It’s very simple. Provide the Police with the info of the person you purchased it from, any documentation (forum posts and email transactions) and your FFL will provide access to their log book and a copy of the 4473.

Nothing to worry about (other than being out the firearm and money this guy paid you) and no need to spend money on a lawyer.

The likely scenario here is an erroneous entry or the serial number is for a different firearm make and model and only the serial number was entered.

If it turns out to be stolen you will then possibly file a Theft by Deception (or equivalent charge in your state) against the person who sold it to you based upon the back story of the theft.
Then based upon the investigation you might be made whole financially through restitution or civil court. Though I would not hold my breathe.

Could be worse. There is an online video and news stories in last week or so of a kid that bought a gun at a shop. Gets pulled over for speeding or whatever and he disclosed the new gun. The idiot cop enters the production number or some other number but NOT the serial number and randomly that other number on the gun is entered as stolen. He offers receipts and all kinds of other proof but no dice and to the pokey he goes. Gets out when somebody with a brain looks at it and lawsuit is incoming.

I agree that you have no need for an attorney. But you should not file any criminal charges against your seller unless facts come forward that he had knowledge that it was stolen.

You could ultimately attempt a civil suit, but that is very impractical. I would simply ask him to refund your money. To maintain his reputation on the forum he should want to do so. If he was a new member and is no longer there, then there’s the lesson to be learned.

Hopefully it’s a clerical error and you’ll keep the pistol. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
lawsuit is incoming.

Only way he’ll see any money is if they give him a few thousand in “go away” money. And that’s best case if the story is true at face value.

I suspect it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
The idiot cop enters the production number or some other number but NOT the serial number and randomly that other number on the gun is entered as stolen.

This is something to be aware of, but not because the cop was an idiot. Prior to the 1968 Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act (1968 GCA) firearms were not generally required to have serial numbers, and many didn’t. Few police officers today are probably aware of the fact and will assume that the one and only number on a gun is a unique serial number.

Two of my own experiences:

My agency ran a patent number on a firearm and another agency across the country said, “Hey, that was a gun stolen here.” It took several back and forth messages to convince them that the gun we had was probably not their stolen rifle and which did not have an actual serial number.

Another time I was reviewing an extensive list of S&W revolvers seized in an operation by Army CID and the ATF—yes, the firearms experts. I noticed that many of the numbers on the ATF’s list were factory assembly numbers, not serial numbers. After I, the nonexpert, pointed that out, it was, “Oh, okay, they were what we were looking for after all.”

Ignorance does not (always) equal idiocy or we would all be guilty of that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

There are several other issues with the NCIC firearms database:

1: The firearms file is the only file that recovered items are not removed. Once a stolen gun is recovered, it is made inactive but remains in the database. Other items (cars, articles, etc) are removed when recovered

2; NCIC firearm serial number searches only check numeric digits for a hit. This provides false hits (especially on early glocks) all of the time. Image you have a Glock 17 serial number abc123us that gets stolen and is entered into NCIC. Later someone runs a similar Glock 17 serial number xyz123. NCIC will pop up that stolen gun record as a match. Unlike the receiver of the hit checks every line of the return, they will act erroneously based on the hit.


We actually do specific training on reading these returns to minimize errors.

Back around 2004 or 05, a guy came into the gun shop/range were I was working part time wanting to sell a S&W J frame. He wasn't happy with what the shop offered him, so I asked the Manager if I could buy it from him and he said go ahead.

In PA, handgun sales need to go through an FFL to document the transfer. So it was done, no issues. I kept the gun for a few months and then traded it back to the shop on another pistol. No problems.

A week or so later, the Assistant Manager pulled me aside and said "remember that j frame you bought from the guy and later traded back, a guy tried to buy it a couple of days ago and it came back as stolen."

In PA, FFLs are required to use the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS), managed by the Pennsylvania State Police, rather than the federal NICS system. Sometimes it is a "bit" behind...

You may lose out on that firearm since it is stolen so use the money you were going to use for a lawyer and buy a new one. You have proof of where/who you bought it from so it should not be a legal issue.

And the information in NCIC is only as good as the information entered. It’s been a few years, but when I was on the task force we caught a report from a podunk agency on a stolen Glock. I looked at the number on the report and knew it wasn’t the serial number. Come to find out, it is that product number on the gun box that ends in MOS. Called the officer and it was the number provided by the owner. He wasn’t a gun guy so that’s the number that was entered.

Funny part was I ran the number NCIC and not only had their dispatch entered that number, but it had also been entered by 42 other LE agencies.

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
Could be worse. There is an online video and news stories in last week or so of a kid that bought a gun at a shop. Gets pulled over for speeding or whatever and he disclosed the new gun. The idiot cop enters the production number or some other number but NOT the serial number and randomly that other number on the gun is entered as stolen. He offers receipts and all kinds of other proof but no dice and to the pokey he goes. Gets out when somebody with a brain looks at it and lawsuit is incoming.

Something very similar occurred I believe last weekend on On Patrol Live with Hazen,AR PD. The chief responded as backup and knew the guy that had been stopped. The guy swore he purchased the AR pistol from a retail store. The chief ran another check and it came up clear. Turns out the first officer had used the model number rather than serial when he ran his check.

I’d be cautious in accepting the buyer’s statement at face value until I heard from LE. Scammers aren’t forbidden from firearms buying.

What state is it in? Alaska, for instance, uses NICS and no individual firearm model or serial info is given to NICS.

Since you didn’t steal it, I wouldn’t worry much about it. You may lose out on some $$, then no gun. If you have the records, the police can go back on the trail as able.

To update this whole thing…


I asked the guy I bought it from. He said he bought it from a pawn shop in TX and gave me their contact info.

After a few days a Phoenix PD officer (the guy I sold it to was in Phoenix) called and I gave him the info of the guy I bought it from and the info of the pawn shop he bought it from. He said it’s likely that someone stole it, sold it to the pawn shop, and then to the guy I bought from. At some point whoever had it stolen from them reported it well after the chain (it went through 2 clean FFL transfers and only got caught on the third) and that’s how we ended up here.

The guy I sold it to is asking for me to split the loss with him but I’m inclined to give him a full refund…it’s not his fault. I’m just salty because it’s not my fault either.

Not all FFLs run the serial numbers of guns they take in.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
Not all FFLs run the serial numbers of guns they take in.

It has only been available to FFL’s recently. There was never a way to do that before unless there were state databases. Now it can be done through NICS.

quote:

Originally posted by dwd1985:...
The guy I sold it to is asking for me to split the loss with him but I’m inclined to give him a full refund…it’s not his fault. I’m just salty because it’s not my fault either.

I have had similar issues in life. (not firearm, but I returned funds on a couple of other deals, one was nearly 3 grand), and while it is "salty", you really know you did the right thing in the end with that attitude.

You have my respect.

I run a lot of guns in my job. I've found that older guns, especially Smith and Wesson revolvers, use the same serial number across different models. I've had guns hit for stolen with a serial number, but the description shows a different model, or caliber.
Also, some folks have entered guns stolen into NCIC using the model numbers, again getting multiple hits on a single number.
I'd confirm against all of the above, and ask the police investigating to do the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Huffman:
I run a lot of guns in my job. I've found that older guns, especially Smith and Wesson revolvers, use the same serial number across different models. I've had guns hit for stolen with a serial number, but the description shows a different model, or caliber.
Also, some folks have entered guns stolen into NCIC using the model numbers, again getting multiple hits on a single number.
I'd confirm against all of the above, and ask the police investigating to do the same.

Yep, older S&W revolvers have serial numbers on the grip and different numbers on the cylinder. I can see how wrong numbers can be entered.