SIGforum
Bar exam will no longer be required to become attorney in Washington State
March 20, 2024, 11:38 AM
229DAKBar exam will no longer be required to become attorney in Washington State
I could see "Passed the Xxxxxx Bar Exam in xxxx" on established lawyer's business cards.
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“A man’s treatment of a dog is no indication of the man’s nature, but his treatment of a cat is. It is the crucial test. None but the humane treat a cat well.”
-- Mark Twain, 1902
March 20, 2024, 12:05 PM
divilWell the hidden result of the libtard “feel good” requirement shift is that anyone who needs legal representation in WA should go ahead and assume which groups were disproportionally flunking the Bar Exam and avoid people from those groups as potential lawyers.
March 20, 2024, 12:12 PM
ShaqlI foresee a lot of appeals based on ineffective counsel coming. It'll be a heyday for actual lawyers!
Hedley Lamarr: Wait, wait, wait. I'm unarmed.
Bart: Alright, we'll settle this like men, with our fists.
Hedley Lamarr: Sorry, I just remembered . . . I am armed.
March 20, 2024, 12:14 PM
ZSMICHAELI just wish they would again prohibit lawyers from advertising.
March 20, 2024, 12:20 PM
Joe 5632I may not be a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
March 20, 2024, 12:22 PM
erj_pilot^^^^^
Then you're no good because you didn't stay at a Holiday Inn EXPRESS last night!
"If you’re a leader, you lead the way. Not just on the easy ones; you take the tough ones too…” – MAJ Richard D. Winters (1918-2011), E Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne
"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil... Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel." - Isaiah 5:20,24 March 20, 2024, 01:13 PM
downtownvThey will self-extinguish.
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March 20, 2024, 01:17 PM
9mmepiphanyquote:
Originally posted by Milliron:
I’d be the first to tell you that passing the Bar exam doesn’t tell one much about a lawyer’s expertise. I’ve met some stupid ass lawyers who passed it, and some smart ones who failed it.
Not sure about their alternatives, though, and I don’t buy the “disadvantaged groups” bullshit.
I've had the same experience.
The difference between a law school graduate who passes the Bar one the first try and one who doesn't is often just that one is a better test taker...I've found that this is more often true of states which only require a multiple choice exam
The alternatives actually seem pretty well thought out...although the "Clerking" one is a bit suspect
No, Daoism isn't a religion
March 20, 2024, 01:25 PM
9mmepiphanyquote:
Originally posted by smschulz:
I always thought it was odd that you could pass the bar exam but if you did not go to college and get a law degree you cannot be a lawyer.
At least that is what was portrayed in the TV Show "Suits".
I thought that was just a show ploy but apparently not?
I think it funny that people thought the premise was fantasy. Most BAR exams go through a lot of steps to prevent "test takers" from completing the exam for others...if it wasn't happening, they wouldn't try to prevent it.
I once met a very good lawyer who passed the bar by studying once she came to this country...she had to petition for them to accept her legal training in England. She practiced Family Law, which paid the bills, and Criminal Law, for trial experience. She was good enough to eventually become a judge and is well respected by lawyers who have appeared before her
No, Daoism isn't a religion
March 20, 2024, 01:25 PM
MillironThere is more to that article than was posted (which OP noted):
quote:
Gonzaga School of Law Dean Jacob Rooksby said he is supportive of alternative pathways but hopes they will be implemented at a smaller scale first.
“I’m on board with it in concept,” Rooksby said. “The devil is in the details.”
The pathway for law students supposes that law schools will be involved in some level, Rooksby said. It’s unclear how that will impact Gonzaga at this point, he said.
“I urged that we move in this direction cautiously and viewing it almost as a case study or a trial to see: How could the different schools implement it but in a small scale?” he said.
He proposed allowing no more than 5% of an incoming class to pursue the experiential pathway at first until the profession can gauge interest from students and employers. Rooksby also has some concerns that this pathway would be of particular interest to people with family connections in the legal field, which likely wouldn’t be contributing to the goal of diversifying the profession.
He hopes for “guardrails” so that the goal of increasing diversity and meeting legal needs in marginalized communities is met.
Rooksby expects the earliest an alternative pathway process could be implemented at Gonzaga would be in 2025.
The Supreme Court called for the investigation and adoption of assessments and programs to help ensure lawyers remain competent throughout their careers, not just at initial licensure.
These changes are in addition to Washington adopting the new National Conference of Bar Examiners’ NextGen bar exam, which focuses more on practice and real-world skills. That exam will be implemented in summer 2026.
The court also lowered the bar exam minimum passing score from 270 to 266, a reduction previously made during the COVID-19 pandemic.
Rooskby said first-year students at Gonzaga would be taking the new exam, and the school has begun working on an adjusted curriculum. He’s happy the exam focuses more on practical skills than the traditional standardized test memorization.
“The combination of adopting the NextGen bar exam and lowering the score are positive steps to close the access to justice rate that we have in Washington state and other states have as well,” he said.
The Washington State Bar Association will implement the changes. A timeline has yet to be set. The bar association did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
The task force, made up of representatives from more than 30 groups and areas of practice, also examined the character and fitness process for lawyer licensure. The state Supreme Court plans to discuss and potentially make decisions on the task force’s recommendations in that arena next month.
This actually makes a little more sense. I'm all for a requirement that a prospective lawyer demonstrate an understanding of how to practice law rather than regurgitate information, which is all the Bar exam actually requires. I have no idea what the new and improved NextGen exam looks like. But it sounds like they aren't making this change all of a sudden.
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"Age does not bring wisdom. Often it merely changes simple stupidity into arrogant conceit. It's only advantage, so far as I have been able to see, is that it spans change. A young person sees the world as a still picture, immutable. An old person has had his nose rubbed in changes and more changes and still more changes so many times that that he knows it is a moving picture, forever changing. He may not like it--probably doesn't; I don't--but he knows it's so, and knowing is the first step in coping with it."
Robert Heinlein
March 20, 2024, 05:29 PM
Sig2340This will utterly destroy the Washington State criminal and appellate courts.
Every criminal will hire the cheapest lawyer they can afford, knowing they are virtually guaranteed a successful appeal based on inadequate representation.
Nice is overrated
"It's every freedom-loving individual's duty to lie to the government."
Airsoftguy, June 29, 2018
March 20, 2024, 05:40 PM
jljonesSo, if a bunch of groups of cops get together and decide there is no need to pass tests at the academy, or go though the academy at all as long as their are hodgepodge alternatives, will they be ok with that as well??
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March 20, 2024, 09:18 PM
ChicagoSigManAs an attorney, I'm actually not bothered by this. First, new attorneys can still take the bar exam to become admitted. I imagine it will remain the standard at most big to medium size firms because it is quick and efficient and almost all their hires end up passing on the first or second try. The alternative pathways are optional.
Second, the experience-based pathways actually make a lot of sense. When I took the bar, I was tested on family law, property law, constitutional law, criminal law, civil procedure, torts, etc....basically every area of law - except the one that I had been hired to practice. My passing the bar gave no real indication of my ability to do anything other than pass the bar. In fact, most law students (me included) get hired for jobs based on school performance even before taking the bar. As a corporate lawyer, an apprenticeship in a corporate law department of a firm would have made a lot of sense as a basis for admission to the bar. In almost any firm of any size, the first year is basically an apprenticeship anyway.
Now, the reasoning behind the decision - that minorities can't pass the exam like white students - is insulting and silly. But the overall decision to create experience-based ways to gain admission to the bar other than passing the exam is fine by me and actually smart.
March 20, 2024, 09:49 PM
Scuba Steve SigIowa tried to pass this a couple years ago and it didn't happen. Both law schools here pushed for it as admissions are lagging to all law schools. The costs to go to law school are skyrocketing and starting law wages are not. It now costs over twice what it cost me to go to law school in 2003-2006.
They tried to spin it as a way to persuade more law school prospects to come to Iowa from other states, go to school here, and then practice in rural areas, which are needing more attorneys as young families are fleeing to the city as Big Farm takes over the Family Century Farm as the owners pass and the kids sell. Husbands and wives of law school students don't want to live in Green Acres unless they grew up there and their friends live there.
Wisconsin has had this "diploma privilege" for years, I've not heard anything bad about it. GPA doesn't guarantee lawyer success. LSAT doesn't guarantee lawyer success. Law school GPA doesn't guarantee lawyer success. Neither does the bar exam as stated herein. However, these are all decades old methods of trying to come up with some sort of objective standards to define a profession. The headwind is "I did it, so everyone else has to do it too."
Very little of the required classes in law school teach you how to BE a lawyer. I took the non-required semester in our Legal Clinic and some elective pretrial and trial advocacy classes and those three things were the most helpful for me to BE an attorney and to WANT to be an attorney. The rest is rote memorization, regurgitation, and application during examination, all under the Socratic Method or finals time crunch.
The vast majority of students when I graduated in 2006 hung their own shingle doing court appointed criminal cases and whatever else came in their door with little structured direction other than watching and observing, listserv groups, and discussing with judges. The ones that started at Big Law got stuck in basements doing document review and maybe tagged along to court every now and then to watch and incur more billable hours for the firm.
Lawyers are being replaced more and more with Pro Se efforts by the same Bar and/or Supreme Court we pay our dues to. Might as well let Danny DeVito, Para-attorney join in.
March 21, 2024, 07:11 AM
Timdogg6quote:
Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
As an attorney, I'm actually not bothered by this. First, new attorneys can still take the bar exam to become admitted. I imagine it will remain the standard at most big to medium size firms because it is quick and efficient and almost all their hires end up passing on the first or second try. The alternative pathways are optional.
Second, the experience-based pathways actually make a lot of sense. When I took the bar, I was tested on family law, property law, constitutional law, criminal law, civil procedure, torts, etc....basically every area of law - except the one that I had been hired to practice. My passing the bar gave no real indication of my ability to do anything other than pass the bar. In fact, most law students (me included) get hired for jobs based on school performance even before taking the bar. As a corporate lawyer, an apprenticeship in a corporate law department of a firm would have made a lot of sense as a basis for admission to the bar. In almost any firm of any size, the first year is basically an apprenticeship anyway.
Now, the reasoning behind the decision - that minorities can't pass the exam like white students - is insulting and silly. But the overall decision to create experience-based ways to gain admission to the bar other than passing the exam is fine by me and actually smart.
Agreed all the way around!
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March 21, 2024, 07:47 AM
HKAngusKLquote:
Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
I just wish they would again prohibit lawyers from advertising.
I agree to some extent. The personal injury superfirms here in Florida really push the limits and spend insane amounts on marketing.
The Florida Bar rubber stamps basically anything those larger firms do advertising wise, including apparently letting John Morgan hire YouTube live streamers to solicit and sign viewers up live on their streams. If independent and small firms began employing the same tactics, you better believe that the Bar would crack down on it.
Regarding Bar examinations, as has been mentioned earlier, Wisconsin has allowed graduates from Marquette and the University of Wisconsin to be admitted without examination for decades. The exam itself isn't an indicator of fitness to practice law. When I sat for it, the exam felt more like a form of ritual hazing than a realistic testing environment. At the Tampa Convention Center we lined up and went through a metal detector to get in. We were seated in giant testing rooms with tons of people. It was the luck of the draw whether someone near you vomited or had a freak out. I passed it on my first attempt, but it was a miserable experience.
On the other hand, law school does very little, outside of certain clinical, trial advocacy, and pretrial practice courses, to prepare graduates for practice. Only a small portion of the day to day grind of practice in a law firm or corporate setting involves issue spotting and drafting memoranda/briefs. Law schools don't prepare you for the rest of it.
There does need to be some mechanism for limiting the amount of membership in the profession. As it stands now, even with the Bar exam and other hurdles, the legal market in Florida is saturated beyond belief. I am against eliminating barriers to entry and dramatically increasing membership in the profession, because the market is evolving. Future developments improving AI research and drafting will put a good chunk of associates out of work in the next half decade, if not sooner.
March 21, 2024, 08:00 AM
83v45magna ambulance chasers. Just what we need.
March 21, 2024, 08:50 AM
HKAngusKLquote:
Originally posted by 83v45magna:
More ambulance chasers. Just what we need.
We need more attorneys who will take legit injury cases all the way to trial, versus conning their clients to settle for less to close the file and get a fee. Nobody likes personal injury lawyers until they get shafted by an insurance company and need one.
March 21, 2024, 09:08 AM
sseRecipe for disaster, effect on day to day practice is bad enough, but just think what it would be like to have further reduction in judicial competence.
March 21, 2024, 09:10 AM
ssequote:
Originally posted by Milliron:
I’ve met some stupid ass lawyers who passed it, and some smart ones who failed it.
i'm in one of those categories, not saying which...lol