Page 1 2
Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
Resident Knuckledragger |
I found this series on YouTube this afternoon, I'm enjoying it immensely. | ||
|
Member |
I see your interest, nice find- thanks for sharing! I'm a firm believer that Buford's actions on the first day saved Gettysburg for the union. ______________________________________________ Life is short. It’s shorter with the wrong gun… | |||
|
| An investment in knowledge pays the best interest |
Thank you for posting this, truly enjoyed it! | |||
|
| Leatherneck |
Very nice! Several years ago I visited Gettysburg and was unaware of the size of the engagement. I had visited other Civil War battlefields and expected Gettysburg to be similar to what I had seen before. The tour I took was quite eye-opening to the scale of the battle and I spent a lot of time researching the battle after my visit. One day I hope to make it back there now that I am better educated. “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
|
Mistake Not... |
Gettysburg is an incredible place. My wife's cousin is in the Park Service and married another Ranger. He gave the most fantastic and informative tour to my wife and I. I've been three times and strongly feel that it is a place all Americans should visit at least once. To pay homage to the dead if nothing else. ___________________________________________ Life Member NRA & Washington Arms Collectors Mistake not my current state of joshing gentle peevishness for the awesome and terrible majesty of the towering seas of ire that are themselves the milquetoast shallows fringing my vast oceans of wrath. Velocitas Incursio Vis - Gandhi | |||
|
posting without pants |
Excellent video, thanks. I have always thought that Gettysburg is Lee's greatest defeat, and one where he pretty much defeated himself. He snatched defeat from the jaws of victory many, many times. There were SO many errors that could have won the battle, or at the least, lead to a draw and strategic victory if not on the battlefield... Let's start at the beginning... First off, Lee was invading the north... Armies HAVE to eat... For the first time in a LONG time, he was feeding his army off Northern supplies. Had he waged an offensive strategic campaign, and defensive tactical campaign (taking good defensive ground, and forcing Meade (who was known as a cautious, defensive general, to attack him on ground of his choosing,) he could have made his numerical inferiority his strength.) He could have ravaged northern supplies, civilians, farms, towns, and FORCED Meade to attack him, and pretty much chosen when and where the attack was going to come. IMO, the first few hours of day 1 should have been trying to exploit a breakthrough, and if it had not happened, pulled back to a defensive position north and east, and sent out foraging/ravaging parties to loot/pillage Maryland. This would have FORCED Meade to attack him given the immense political pressure. (This would have been easier had Stuart not been a glory hungry douche and actaully showed up on time.) If Stuart had not been a total ineffective fool, Lee MAY have even had a chance... Given the political climate, the North was losing the war at this time, or at least, not winning. Lincoln was replacing Generals like chewing gum, and he wanted a victory to help civilian morale. Northern farms being ravaged, and men dying in futile assaults would not help that. Lee was badly outnumbered, and even at the end of Day 1, despite enveloping the enemy, he didn't have the numbers to exploit any breakthrough. He should have known this. The enveloping army has to stretch thinner, and if you are on the lower end of numerical strength, that means the enemy can keep troops in reserve in the center to defend any breakthough, and use to reinforce any attack and aid their own breakthrough. Lee DID NOT HAVE A RESERVE, or a backup plan.... Had he continued to push during the end of day 1, and into day 2, he could have significantly weakened his center (1. knowing Meade wouldn't have the guts to attack and he never did. 2. By the time he could, he could have a double envelopement and use the calvary in the north (who finally showed up) to do immense damage.... Instead of hte failed night attacks he should have shifted troops to the flanks and done the "all out assault" he committed George Pickett to on day 3, on day 2, on the flanks if he was so committed... Better yet, he should have pulled back a bit to the good defensive ground, with skirmishers up front to slow any assault, and committed 15% of his forces to looting and foraging supplies from the northern countryside. This would have FORCED Meade to attack him, and would have lost his numerical advantage as he could choose where and when the battle was to be held... With any luck and planning, get Meade to over extend and kill/capture many, many people. Day 3 was an absolute clusterfuck. Why in the hell day 3 even happened is honestly why I consider Lee a mediocre general. Despite his sometimes brilliant moves, this was one of the most bonehead, idiotic moves in the history of warfare... He could have still salvaged a draw at this point, but stubbornness, or political pressure, or whatever, forced him into a huge blunder, and one that pretty much ensured he would be on the defensive for the remainder of the war. Sun Tzu would point out this battle as a textbook example of EXACTLY what NOT to do.... If he had lived 2000 years later... Had roles been reversed, and Meade controlled the Confederate army, and Lee controlled the Union army, this would have been an extremely interesting battle, as each general was at the exact opposite of their element IMO. This is pretty much the one time I can think of that this happened. Lee was good on the attack, but he didn't have an army set up for the attack. He was at a significant numerical disadvantage, terrain disadvantage, and artillery disadvantage. (of his "grand barrage" he shot off before Pickett's charge, an estimated 90 percent of his shells went over the target and did minimal damage... not to mention the quality of cannon was not nearly in his favor as the Union troops had both longer range, rifled cannon, and more of them) Second, Meade had a large reserve, and could replace troops worn down by fire ant attacks with fresh troops (which he did, sometimes even by incompetent luck) and rest battle weary troops... Even if Lee had chosen to defend on day 3 (after the battle was already lost and he was only trying not to lose as bad IMO) he would pitted inferior divisions against fresh ones by that point. Day 3 was probably one of the most damaging days ever for the Confederacy... Had that not happened, the war would have dragged on for much longer, and maybe, (I say MAYBE, because the immense numerical, technological, and material advantage for the Union was so large) the world would be much different. If nothing else, it would have added a year or two to the war. I can only imagine my favorite military strategist/tactician, Napoleon Bonaparte, saying his famous quote: "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."This message has been edited. Last edited by: KevinCW, Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
|
| Member |
Great video! And the Civil War Trust site is terrific as well. Thanks for the heads up on this. | |||
|
Fool for the City |
Would the outcome had been different were Stonewall Jackson still alive? _____________________________ "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington. | |||
|
| posting without pants |
I think so. Had he not been killed by friendly fire, Jackson might have been able to talk Lee out of such a foolhardy attack on day 3, and might have been able to break through on day 1 evening or day 2 morning... Making Gettysburg a skirmish to a more decisive battle that we have no idea of today. Jackson was the absolute hero of Fredricksburg. One that he south would have won, but not nearly as huge as they did wihtout him. While Burnside was a total moron for crossing the river at his artillery's max range that they couldn't support, and into a line of Southern troops fortified in sunken roades, stone walls, and fencers (Marye's Heights, where Lee supposedly wept after witnessing the destruction of Union troops) the Union COULD have won the day in the southern area of the battlefield. Jackson rallied them and routed them, despite having (depending on who you believe) either equal or slightly superior ground, all while being outflanked and out numbered and out gunned by artillery. Also at Chancellorsville.... His initial defense and counterattack against a numerically superior foe (significantly superior foe) and turned it into pretty much a rout.... Jackson's death was IMO one of the most significant blows to the Confederacy that directly led to the eventual outcome of the war. That said, Jackson was also a proponent of a "defensive war" to make the North capitulate and make a peace treaty... So it can't be certain that Lee's invasion of the north would have even happened (as Jackson was one of the few people Lee listened to.) Interesting discussion... Best had over a few bottles of wine/booze. In hindsight though, it is probably best it went the way it did, as WWI and WWII wouldn't have turned out the way they did had the United States been divided, But from a military history perspective, extremely interesting. I'm going to go in the camp that if both Jeb Stuart wasn't an idiot, and Lee were smart, the battle of Gettysburg would have NEVER even been fought. There would have been a different battle fought in Pennsylvania that made the outcome of the war.... But that is for a whole 'nother conversation... Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
|
| Member |
That was really interesting! Every time I watch something about the Civil War, I have to think about how horrible it would have been to be wounded in those days. No decent anesthesia, no antibiotics, etc. Lie there for hours or days until someone hacks your leg off with a saw or infection kills you. Awful. | |||
|
| Member |
This is great. Thank you. | |||
|
Don't Panic |
Excellent video! Thanks for posting.
Yep. For example, put him in command on the north flank on the second day, and those attacks would have been co-ordinated with each other, and with Longstreet's push on the other flank. Meade would have had to choose where to stand, and wouldn't have been able to reinforce both. | |||
|
| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
That was more common than it needed to be and certainly horrible. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. was an officer wounded twice in combat, survived severe dysentery and lived to become a Supreme Court Justice who retired from the Court at 90. Read what Winston Churchill wrote about the fighting in the Hundu Kush when he was a young cavalry subaltern. Gruesome indeed! Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
|
| Member |
Thank you for posting; the video helped me understand what I saw when I visited there. So much to see; a complicated battle and a complicated site to view and understand what took place those three days. | |||
|
| Member |
Agree. Great video as I have been to Gettysburg three or four times and still couldn't fully wrap my ahead around the ebb and flow of the battle. This video really changed that. It seems like Lee really did underestimate the Union Army. | |||
|
| Member |
Considered to be the best single volume book on the subject"The Gettysburg Campaign A study in Command by Edwin B Coddington". Further study of the battle the 2nd day was the pivotal moment, thus the true High Tide of the Confederacy. The 3rd day was an effort in futility thus a waste of manpower and material. The winter after Gettysburg the 1st and 3rd corps Army of The Potomac which had both been shattered at Gettysburg on the first day of the battle 1st Corps and 2nd day 3rd corps were deactivated and surviving units were distributed among different Corps. | |||
|
| Member |
Great insights - thanks. I always felt that Lee's reputation for winning critical battles against overwhelming forces was really achieved on the shoulders of Jackson. | |||
|
| Member |
Lack of Cavalary support during the first two days & J.E.B Stuarts decision making process didn't help the ANV at Gettysburg.... ______________________________________________ Life is short. It’s shorter with the wrong gun… | |||
|
Yokel |
Thank You Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it! - John Steinbeck | |||
|
| posting without pants |
Sorry for the late reply... More on that later. But, Lee did have a lot of genius in his historical record, but not on things that history rewards. History generally rewards not only the victors, but the men/women who have a few decisive moments. Not many generals are lauded for their "delaying actions" unless it leads to a greater victory. Despite Lee doing a good job of a "delaying action" he didn't win, and probably never would have. He wasn't rewarded by history for that. The defensive war he fought after Gettysburg is significant, and should not be overlooked, although it often is. Both after this battle, and increasingly as the war drug on, Lee became more and more at a disadvantage. Literally, each day that passes, the Union army became stronger, and his became weaker. That it went on for as long as it did is testament to his skill as a battlefield commander. Especially when you factor in the significant losses in the West by the Confederate armies, (both the losses of the Mississippi river, and significant casualties in those campaigns) and the absolute destruction of the interior of the Confederacy by General Sherman. In a strategic theater, Lee was doomed years before his surrender at Appomattox. He fought it out for significantly longer than many others could have. Up until, and including Gettysburg, it was possible for the South to win IMO (beyond a miracle after that). After this one, the only possible outcome was inevitable... Just a question of how long it would take. Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
© SIGforum 2024