SIGforum
United flight passenger beating/American Airlines fight with pregnant passenger - Page 47: Delta has gone too far this time
April 10, 2017, 02:07 PM
coloradohunter44United flight passenger beating/American Airlines fight with pregnant passenger - Page 47: Delta has gone too far this time
I commute to CA for my work, flying a privately owned Citation operated under part 91. You see it all given enough time. Incidences like this are great for my business and continue to fuel the number of folks who will spend 10-20 times or more the cost of traveling via the likes of Delta Private Jets and such. It' unfortunate and sad to say that the United folks erred big time in how this was dealt with. I too had wondered if anyone had offered to occupy the jump seat to at least help one person out. It is a crazy business, full of many things that affect the outcome. Mechanical issues, weather, marketing, you name it.
"Someday I hope to be half the man my bird-dog thinks I am."
looking forward to 4 years of TRUMP!
April 10, 2017, 02:11 PM
BGULLI have one question, I haven't looked into the accounts on the internet very deeply. In the aftermath of the very supposedly necessary removal, why was the good doctor allowed back on the plane, all bloody, and then the flight was delayed further to tidy the plane and presumably the doctor, up. UAL just made mince meat of any argument that his seat was needed....despite the immense cluster show that they caused.....
Bill Gullette
April 10, 2017, 02:15 PM
ShaqlI flew every week from '96 until last year. So 20 years. This issue is a lot more complicated than any one person understands. I'm talking about overbooking, not the horrendous issue in the OP.
Overbooking happens to keep flights profitable. The few of reasons I can think of:
- airlines expect x percentage of no-shows.
- airlines expect y percentage of flyers to take an earlier flight (standby).
- airlines expect z percentage of flyers to take an earlier flight (rebook).
- airlines expect A percentage of flights cancelled due to mechanical issues
- airlines expect B percentage of flights cancelled due to weather
- airlines expect C percentage of customers to miss connecting flights due to A or B.
In 20+ years of flying I've seen overbooked flights a good percentage of time regardless of the time of day or day of week. The problem occurs when those percentages don't match reality.
After 9/11 everything changed. The internet boom (the heyday of flight travel) was ending, people weren't traveling near as much and we were entering a recession. What turns out to be a big recession. The fallout was that every airline was cash poor and debt high.
Airlines needed to become more profitable per flight and remove unprofitable routes and time-slots. After 9/11 airlines started selling off old airplanes, foregoing routes, and reducing the hourly flights to highly desirable destinations.
The airlines start making record profits but are paying off record debt and refilling their coffers.
Enter the low-budget airlines with higher fees and restrictions. The big carriers have to now compete with that and you see how we now have low-budget options on major carriers (non-bonus-mile-earning-middle-seat-back-row seats. Baggage fees, no food, etc... no more food, and now the addition of 2nd class (the legroom rows). Back to the pre '90s of true 1st, 2nd, coach classes... This was very prevalent in the 90s in Europe and not so in the US. I always liked that about the US air industry. Not that way anymore.
Someone nailed on the head earlier. The airlines make their money off of the professional flyer. Yes, they get treated better but they also pay a premium for their flights. But they are also higher maintenance.
So you can see the difficulty in trying to maintain profitable flights while trying to provide a positive customer experience and be responsive to customer care issues due to weather or mechanical issues.
Not really any solution or an excuse, but trying to give some perspective on the problem.
The formulas that are used to purchase tickets are just as crazy. Fare class, time of day, destination etc.. all play a part. You get deeper discounts for purchasing in advance and get heavily penalized for last minute purchases or alterations. I've always thought that if you fixed this problem, it would help the customer. Problem is that it probably hurts the airline too much as I'm sure they'd much rather have a simple fare calculation than what they have today.
My $.02...
Hedley Lamarr: Wait, wait, wait. I'm unarmed.
Bart: Alright, we'll settle this like men, with our fists.
Hedley Lamarr: Sorry, I just remembered . . . I am armed.
April 10, 2017, 02:17 PM
GregYquote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
quote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Once in your seat, your contract with the airline and federal law (still) apply. While people hate being denied boarding, that is what you agreed to when you bought the ticket.
Oh, yes, the
fine print. Of course.
Yeah, forcibly removing a paying passenger from their seat for a "Must Ride"
is OK, because of the fine print.
Oh, wait. It's not OK. It's nowhere near OK, as the gigantic shit show that UA created demonstrates. You be sure and tell the entire world about that fine print, OK? Because people are listening to that stuff right now. Hell, they barely notice the multiple videos of the guy being dragged from the plane, what with being busy reading the fine print on their ticket. Sure, that's how this works. UA is golden, no worries. Just read the fine print.
I'm not saying it was the smart business decision. In fact I said way back on page 1 of this thread I don't know why they didn't increase the offer for volunteers.
But the facts remain that every passenger enters into a contract which governs, as does federal law.
It costs a lot of money to not have overbooking, and honestly it negatively affects extremely few people. Involuntary denials are extremely rare.
Most people benefit greatly by it due to lower airfares.
People love to hate the airlines. Even people who never or almost never fly. But when they do fly they want the absolutely cheapest seat imaginable. Then they complain about every imaginable thing.
You refuse to get it.
People tend to have a reasonable expectation that coercive force (which is potentially lethal, any application of force is potentially lethal) will not be applied to them, if they have done absolutely nothing wrong.
If the fine print of a contract allows you to employ potentially lethal force against the other party in your contract, who has honored their end, right up until you find honoring *your* end of the contract
inconvenient and so unilaterally decide to 'renegotiate'..... There is something absofuckinglutely wrong with your fine print.
April 10, 2017, 02:23 PM
Dallas239quote:
Originally posted by 1967Goat:
Poor planning on their part (Airline), does not constitute and emergency on my part (being kicked off a flight that I paid for).
If they told me I need to leave the plane, they would be dragging me off as well. They would most likely have to rough me up as I am not going quietly.
They entered into a contract when they sold him the ticket, and now they are trying to re-neg. If they wanted room from the crew, perhaps they should not sell all of the seats.
This bullshit of overselling flights needs to stop. There's a simple solution to this problem.
Yes, a contract. A contract that says they can bump him if the flight is oversold. How much of the contract do you want to enforce?
"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here." -- Ronald Reagan, Farewell Address, Jan. 11, 1989
Si vis pacem para bellum
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.
Feeding Trolls Since 1995 April 10, 2017, 02:26 PM
TMatsquote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
quote:
Originally posted by TMats:
quote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Having said all that, when you're told to get off the airplane by someone on uniform, you get off the f'n airplane and sort it out later! Call your attorney if you think you have a case. But you aren't going to win against 3 trained men.
Are those security guys sworn law enforcement? Something isn't quite right.
Trained?!? He dragged him out by his fucking arms! Is that what they "trained" him to do?
I'm just saying unless you're Chuck Fucking Norris there is no way you're not getting your body pulled off the airplane once the muscle has been called in to do just that. Right or wrong, legal or not, stupid or smart, you're going to be removed from the airplane.
When the cop is standing next to you in the airplane asking you to leave there is no question you are no longer going to be on the aircraft. Now do you want to do it the easy way or the hard way?
and I'm just saying, some supervisor made the call to remove the doctor--by force if necessary. Depending on the physical condition of the person being removed, grabbing a person by the hands and dragging them
could have dislocated one or both shoulders. Maybe an airline official should have come in with the security personnel. Forcefully "escort" him off the plane, if that's what you've decided to do. Allowing this incident to degenerate into the scene as it played out is wrong on every level and inexcusable.
_______________________________________________________
despite them
April 10, 2017, 02:27 PM
Balzé Halzéquote:
Originally posted by SIGnified:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGnified:
quote:
Originally posted by Balzé Halzé:
quote:
Originally posted by SIGnified:
We should all recognize that business travelers drive most of the profit for airlines. Not the discount, teaser fares. I bet the doc was full-fare ...
I seriously doubt that. Frequent flyers with a high medallion status (or whatever is equivalent to other airlines) simply aren't going to get bumped. Someone like you or me who fly weekly aren't getting dragged off of a plane. Just ain't gonna happen.
Really? Tell me more ... what If I'm not on my preferred airline?
Why would you not be on your preferred airline? Then you're just like any other regular flyer. What's your point? As a platinum medallion with Delta, I'm simply not going to get bumped. That's just a fact.
Really, are you that obtuse? I'm tempted to not educate you since you know so damned much already apparently ...
Lot's of reasons I'm not on my preferred airline - of which the top 3 are typically: Destination, Schedule and Price (still spending someone else's $$$ - cannot always go with "preferred" vendor).
For the love of...who's being obtuse? If you're not flying under any type of preferred flyer status, you're not going to get the same service as someone who is. I spend my money with delta and only delta for that reason. My company would put me on the airline with cheapest fare. I take their price quote and pay the difference in order to fly with one airline. I do that so I avoid nonsense like the good doctor went through.
If I were to simply fly with whatever airline my company booked, I'd expect to get bumped and crappier service much more often.
That's the whole reason airlines have frequent flyer programs. If you don't want to participate, expect crappier service.
My whole point from the beginning is that I seriously doubt that this passenger was a frequent flyer with United.
~Alan
Acta Non Verba
NRA Life Member (Patron)
God, Family, Guns, Country
Men will fight and die to protect women... because women protect everything else. ~Andrew Klavan
April 10, 2017, 02:30 PM
jhe888quote:
Originally posted by Dallas239:
Yes, a contract. A contract that says they can bump him if the flight is oversold. How much of the contract do you want to enforce?
Just the parts that suit him.
Again, a poor choice by United in how to handle this incident. In fact, it could hardly have been worse and even ten seconds of thought could have lead to a better solution, but you do agree that you can be bumped when you buy a ticket.
I guess we need some government intervention to stop overbooking? That is the way we like to handle these sorts of problems, right?
The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. April 10, 2017, 02:31 PM
parabellumquote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
So you are in fact wrong in your premise that a passenger has done nothing wrong when refusing to leave the aircraft. The passenger is in violation of the contract he agreed to, and then escalated to the point of violating laws.
No, you really don't get it. The fine print doesn't mean jack shit in this situation, bUt those multiple videos of the passenger being strong-armed matter a lot.
Figure it out. UA fucked up in a very big way.
No one cares when a drunk is removed from a flight, but this is not the same thing, and you can't see it.
But, UA sees it. They see it plainly, because they've been hearing about it all day from the public, and we're not done yet.
____________________________________________________
"I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023
April 10, 2017, 02:34 PM
GregYquote:
Originally posted by Dallas239:
quote:
Originally posted by 1967Goat:
Poor planning on their part (Airline), does not constitute and emergency on my part (being kicked off a flight that I paid for).
If they told me I need to leave the plane, they would be dragging me off as well. They would most likely have to rough me up as I am not going quietly.
They entered into a contract when they sold him the ticket, and now they are trying to re-neg. If they wanted room from the crew, perhaps they should not sell all of the seats.
This bullshit of overselling flights needs to stop. There's a simple solution to this problem.
Yes, a contract. A contract that says they can bump him if the flight is oversold. How much of the contract do you want to enforce?
That's a very good question. Emphasis on the 'force', see my post immediately above yours.
Not every contract is legally enforceable (heh) as written.
This is going to get messy in the courts, I predict. This is going to be worse than the Eric Garner shitshow, because at least in that case what happened was the result of enforcing a law as written, that he was violating.
This happened because the airline found it inconvenient to observe the terms of its own contract, because of poor internal procedures and problem solving.
April 10, 2017, 02:36 PM
Sig209Just absolutely atrocious customer service any way you slice it.
The United personnel involved should be ashamed.
There are many other ways this should have been handled.
-------------------------
Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
April 10, 2017, 02:41 PM
parabellumJesus, man. No one is blaming the police.
quote:
Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
If this were a college student social justice warrior refusing to leave a school building, you all here on this thread would be cheering the police for dragging the non-compliant resisting person out. Private property, laws, and all that other good stuff..
Oh, for fuck's sake!
Enough
LOCKED
April 12, 2017, 08:24 AM
parabellumSIGforum members, the locking of this thread is an upsetting event to all of us here at United err SIGforum. I apologize for having to re-accommodate these customers. Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened.
April 12, 2017, 08:31 AM
BamaJeepsterIf someone posts in this thread now will we be beaten and dragged from the forum???
Looking at United's stock, they would have come out better offering a couple million each for those 4 seats - or they could have chartered a 747 to fly their employees and come out ahead.
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
- John Adams April 12, 2017, 08:35 AM
Skins2881Para & Bama, you guys are cracking me up.
Jesse
Sic Semper Tyrannis April 12, 2017, 08:37 AM
rhquote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
SIGforum members, the locking of this thread is an upsetting event to all of us here at United err SIGforum. I apologize for having to re-accommodate these customers. Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened.
April 12, 2017, 08:38 AM
Jim Shugart"Supports new drag and drop feature." Ha!!!!!
Every personal injury attorney in the country probably has serious boner (or panties that would stick to the ceiling).
When a thing is funny, search it carefully for a hidden truth. - George Bernard Shaw
April 12, 2017, 08:42 AM
SeotajiReports out that the Dr who had been in legal trouble is NOT the Dr who was on the flight.
The KY newspaper who initially reported is seems to be doubling down.
Same first and last name, but different middle.
We'll see how that pans out and how many people his legal team ends up suing.
April 12, 2017, 08:44 AM
parabellumIt doesn't mean a damn thing either way. The man's past history has absolutely nothing to do with this.
I am not a litigious person, but I would sue the ever-loving shit out of UAL over this, and I don't give a damn what it says in the fine print. The case will never reach court anyway. United will pay in an out of court settlement, and they will pay dearly.
____________________________________________________
"I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023
April 12, 2017, 08:44 AM
Patrick-SP2022I have to fly out of Houston next week for work.
No options besides United.
Not sure what is worse, flying United or going to NYC.