quote:

Originally posted by Jimineer:
Screw the incentives. I want cold hard cash in my hands. I trust the airlines about as much as our politicians.

This!!

Respectfully, the issue here is not overbooking. The airline foresaw an issue, that being there was an airplane with no crew. That would really screw up the itinerary for the passengers on that plane and for those using that plane to connect flights whenever it touched down at the airport it was destined to goto. It makes perfect sense for United to put the crew on that plane so that can all be averted.

The vast majority of replies in this thread have it right: keep increasing the incentive until the amount of seats needed to get the backup crew to its destination are available. I would argue that cash vs. airline credit/vouchers would increase the likelihood of passengers willing to give up a seat because I don't like the idea of being forced to fly a specific airline, possibly within a certain time period. At some point, let's say $10,000, United will get their seats, 4 passengers will get paid $2,500 each and then it's business as usual. Regardless if it's $10k, $5k or $50k, it's nothing compared to the PR situation that they have to deal with now. I believe that's the point Para and the rest of us who may not understand the inner workings of an airline are trying to make and that is how a company handles problems and obstacles such as this shouldn't require a frigging crash course on airport logistics. Instead, a simple "pay the man" is all that was necessary to fix a problem that would have been so much more costly if the crew didn't get to their destination. Moreover, it's very likely the airline knows this already and knowingly took the course of action that they did thinking it would save them money with no long term ill effect. But actions have consequences and for that reason, we the passenger need to call United and voice our displeasure, we need to take a stand and use other airlines even if it costs more money. Because the way they treated that man could have been the way they treated any one of us or a loved one and if I'm in for a penny, I'll go in for a pound and they'd be dragging at least two bodies out of that plane if I was "randomly selected."

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They put their people on another flight, that's how.

Delta or another airline had a flight from Chicago to Louisville. If they needed to get their employees there so badly go to the gate and pull out the United credit card.

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Respectfully, the issue here is not overbooking. The airline foresaw an issue, that being there was an airplane with no crew. That would really screw up the itinerary for the passengers on that plane and for those using that plane to connect flights whenever it touched down at the airport it was destined to goto. It makes perfect sense for United to put the crew on that plane so that can all be averted.

Respectfully, you are completely wrong. Airlines have contingencies for such a thing even if it meant moving them in from another city. Again, if that wasn't possible it's up to UNITED to fix the problem THEY created even if it meant pulling out their credit cards and flying another airline.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanic:
I'm somewhat surprised that no one jumped at the $800 offer the get bumped.

It's not $800, its $800 on their airline.

Oh OK, the original article didn't state that - it just mentioned a dollar amount. That does change things a bit.

I agree with many of the other posts - just ratchet up the offer until you have a taker. Much more cost effective all the way around.

As righteous as it was for the doctor to refuse departing, he sure played the drama card! Was he simply that freaked out or did he play it up knowing that he could collect later? Maybe he had some sort of vendetta against airlines. Cynical minds are just curious. I'm sure he and his lawyer are busy as we speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Dead_Eye:
Respectfully, the issue here is not overbooking.

Of coure the issue is the practice of overbooking. Think of what you're defending. It's a form of fraud.

If the practice of overbooking did not exist, there would be no issue. It's truly that simple.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanic:
I'm somewhat surprised that no one jumped at the $800 offer the get bumped.

It's not $800, its $800 on their airline.

No, not necessarily. They do also offer cold hard cash. I've seen it many times. A check is cut right there.

This discussion has reminded me of something - contracts that can be broken at will by only one party are a problem.

Non-refundable tickets my ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Those of you who are so opposed to overbooking, how often do you fly and how often does it affect you? How many times have you personally been denied boarding? How many times have you benefited by accepting the offer of compensation and possibly a 1st Class seat on the next flight?

How many of you are willing to pay 50% more per ticket when you do fly, if overbooking were not allowed? Would you fly as often? Would it impact your budget? Would you be as able to be as profitable in your business? Would your vacation budget support the same quality of vacation if your airfare were more?

Overbooking allows everyone to travel with much reduced fares. Involuntary bumping is not common.

There ain't no free lunch. You want more legroom, more empty seats next to you, better food on board? It all costs money. You want zero chance of being denied boarding? That costs money, too.

I generally fly once a week, sometimes less.

I never pay for my seats - it get's expensed and my client pays. I never, ever see or get $179 ticket LAX to EJR.

It's always nearly $600-$1100 because it's last minute and schedule matters more than anything. Bump me and there will be hell to pay.


Frankly, I would never get out of my seat - I would have held on just like the doctor (I haven't watched the video - so I'm not sure exactly how he behaved, but I understand the attitude). I'd also pop the hatch/door on a 3 hour wait - perhaps grab a beer on the way down the slide.

I've also traveled and flown enough to be be airline savvy; there is NO EXCUSE for what transgressions are being reported. NONE.

We should all recognize that business travelers drive most of the profit for airlines. Not the discount, teaser fares. I bet the doc was full-fare ...

quote:

Originally posted by GregY:
This discussion has reminded me of something - contracts that can be broken at will by only one party are a problem.

Non-refundable tickets my ass.

Yes, the deck is stacked, and to see people defending this disgusting practice of overbooking astonishes me.

quote:

to see people defending this disgusting practice of overbooking astonishes me.

Agreed.

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Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Those of you who are so opposed to overbooking, how often do you fly and how often does it affect you?

Once a year, maybe twice.

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How many times have you personally been denied boarding?

Twice in the past 10 years, so...10-20% of the time.

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How many times have you benefited by accepting the offer of compensation and possibly a 1st Class seat on the next flight?

Zero. It has never been offered to me. The most I've been given is "too bad, so sad. You should have shown up earlier."

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How many of you are willing to pay 50% more per ticket when you do fly, if overbooking were not allowed?

Absolutely. Sign me up.

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Would you fly as often?

Yes, but since I fly infrequently due to the Greyhound mentality of the airlines, this isn't an issue.

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Would it impact your budget?

No.

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Would you be as able to be as profitable in your business?

N/A

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Would your vacation budget support the same quality of vacation if your airfare were more?

Yes. Furthermore, vacations are a luxury for those who can afford them, not a right that every trailer park dweller is afforded.

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You want zero chance of being denied boarding? That costs money, too.

Fine and dandy.

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Originally posted by SIGnified:

We should all recognize that business travelers drive most of the profit for airlines. Not the discount, teaser fares. I bet the doc was full-fare ...

I seriously doubt that. Frequent flyers with a high medallion status (or whatever is equivalent to other airlines) simply aren't going to get bumped. Someone like you or me who fly weekly aren't getting dragged off of a plane. Just ain't gonna happen.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Dead_Eye:
Respectfully, the issue here is not overbooking.

Of coure the issue is the practice of overbooking. Think of what you're defending. It's a form of fraud.

If the practice of overbooking did not exist, there would be no issue. It's truly that simple.

I don't know what the aviation definition of overbooking is, but mine is when they allow more people to buy a ticket than the plane has capacity for. From what I've read, that was not the case here. The airline filled the plane to capacity and that's reasonable for any well run operation. The problem was they needed an entire flight crew to be somewhere and forcibly removed anyone who wouldn't give up their seat once they're already on board, presumably without removing their checked luggage. Are you implying that every airline should be required to keep 4 seats vacant at all times? What if they needed two flight crews on that flight? Does that mean the required amount of empty seats should be doubled?

I offer to get bumped on Southwest when I can. The flight is short and I can deal with it. But, SW better make it worth my while.

They usually get passengers to get bumped BEFORE they board.

I'm good with the policy actually. It's the implementation of the policy where UA choked.

Two wrongs don't make a right, United just found out the hard way what social media and "going viral" means when it's not your cutesy advertisement that favors your company.

First wrong - Overselling the flight and offering rewards to move planes. Heck I loved it when that happened I'd end up with free flight vouchers and not have to use my miles to take off.

However I have seen this same scenario where nobody wanted to take the deal. The airlines removed people to put on another plane, generally people are not happy but they get up and get off, respecting the agreement, rights and process. You know the type, they are called adults... Of course this was before social media where you could get your ass filmed and create a large sense of false rage.

Second wrong - the way the guy handled it, sure he can be upset, but to act like a selfish ass over a plane seat was childish, a snowflake, hell I pretty much expected to see him run down the stairs off the jetway and park his ass in front of the plane in protest.

Everything that happened after he said "I am not getting off this plane" was of his own volition.

We can agree about overselling process not being the best and that it's created a market of flying greyhounds, no doubt, but it's a free market and that's what consumers want, packed planes, cheap fares, no frills. The market responds, if the market was no dickheads, no families with bags of Disney shit in the overheads, crying babies and cell phone talking twatwaffles for $900 then that would be the market. It isn't.

If on the Jury I'd be hard pressed not to hand him a judgement to cover the the costs of UA for delay, security, loss of revenue, losses from damages from the video based on his tantrum. Childish behavior shouldn't be rewarded no matter how we all agree overselling is the problem.

As to overselling to cover empty seats, I'd love to see real hard facts on that, and on how many rev seats are not filled and double sold where the airline pockets unused seat revenue on non refundable non changed tickets.

Overselling created the environment, and it's BS the way they do it, the airline should be required to tell you that your ticket was an overcapacity ticket they sold you, and, be forced to refund that fare 100% if bumped, plus eat the cost of the fare to get you to your destination so you know to either not buy that ticket up front if it's an important flight, or, select another carrier.

Maybe this will change the way the practice is handled,.... nah... Too much free revenue for the carriers on missed seats...

my last flight on delta was a disaster

I had a six day vacation and was going to go to Maui

Made it to LAX and waited - airplane had problems, so I sat at the departure gate for the airplane to be fixed

6 hours later, problem fixed

5 hours later, problem not fixed - looking for a new plane

get new plane, now looking for a crew - found all but one flight attendant - need one that was ETOPS qualified

waited an additional 8 hours for Delta to locate a FA that wanted to go to Hawaii

I was in that gate area for almost 20 hours - three times the flight time to Maui

that was after a 7 hour flight from JFK

needless to say I was pretty pissed - and Delta couldn't give a flying fuck - all they would ever say is delay...delay...delay

lack of information during this episode would have smoothed a lot of feathers but this was just the final straw for me and Delta

here is how I see the problem (which I'm sure United doesn't care about)

If I am on an airplane its likely for business, not just for shits and giggles

lets say I am traveling to CA to work on a project. I have scheduled my trip for business that includes hotels,c ars, meetings with a client and scheduled other people for a project that will give me a check of $20,000 for the project

$800 to delay - they can kiss my ass - $800 is a piss drop in the bucket compared to what I have to lose and re-schedule - not to mention the interruptions to everyone else that I am dealing with on this trip

would I get off an airplane for $800?

not a snowballs fucking chance in hell

the airline is a service - they can either do it or they can't. How they manage the logistics of their employees is their problem, not mine.

You want me off the plane, its a shitload more than $800 which is a fucking insult to the business passenger

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Those of you who are so opposed to overbooking, how often do you fly and how often does it affect you? How many times have you personally been denied boarding? How many times have you benefited by accepting the offer of compensation and possibly a 1st Class seat on the next flight?

How many of you are willing to pay 50% more per ticket when you do fly, if overbooking were not allowed? Would you fly as often? Would it impact your budget? Would you be as able to be as profitable in your business? Would your vacation budget support the same quality of vacation if your airfare were more?

Overbooking allows everyone to travel with much reduced fares. Involuntary bumping is not common.

There ain't no free lunch. You want more legroom, more empty seats next to you, better food on board? It all costs money. You want zero chance of being denied boarding? That costs money, too.

I generally fly once a week, sometimes less.

I never pay for my seats - it get's expensed and my client pays. I never, ever see or get $179 ticket LAX to EJR.

It's always nearly $600-$1100 because it's last minute and schedule matters more than anything. Bump me and there will be hell to pay.


Frankly, I would never get out of my seat - I would have held on just like the doctor (I haven't watched the video - so I'm not sure exactly how he behaved, but I understand the attitude). I'd also pop the hatch/door on a 3 hour wait - perhaps grab a beer on the way down the slide.

I've also traveled and flown enough to be be airline savvy; there is NO EXCUSE for what transgressions are being reported. NONE.

We should all recognize that business travelers drive most of the profit for airlines. Not the discount, teaser fares. I bet the doc was full-fare ...

So the practice of overbooking has never affected you negatively. You've never been bumped. It possibly improves your business profitability by allowing fares to be lower, and thus your services are more affordable to your customers.

Sounds like you benefit from overbooking.

You're wrong.

I have been bumped ... many times.

I know how the system works and have to go to great lengths to "Work it" to get the outcome I agreed to originally by payment for the ticket. I've learned the hard way to develop a Plan B for these circumstances.

Keep digging, you'll get deep enough in your own shorts-yogurt quite soon.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Childish behavior shouldn't be rewarded no matter how we all agree overselling is the problem.

For fuck's sake. Now you're calling the guy childish because he wanted the airline to fly him where he paid to be flown.

Get your comments in. I'm locking this thread before too long. I've seen enough of people defending the indefensible.

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:
Increasing fares to eliminate overbooking will dramatically reduce the number of passengers willing or able to pay for a ticket.

And as I said previously, then, perhaps, the airlines would have to alter their business practices to attract more passengers. Like, maybe, improving customer service?

How is it that they were able to stay in business 20-30 years ago with empty seats and great customer service?

commercial flight , satellite tv and cable tv

"F" em till they are unconscious