Sounds like whining.

Faults can be found with how selection is done and the various 'tests' for applicants, however once you're in the pipeline, you either can or, can't. Getting bounced towards the end, you've either accumulated a lot of the same screw-ups and not shown any progress towards correction or, you broke a handful of cardinal sins.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
This crap reminds me of why the 10mm was no longer used by the FBI.

No, that's not even close. The FBI foolishly adopted a large cartridge, and even more foolishly a very large pistol. People with smaller hands, that were otherwise solid shooters struggled to shoot well due to the size of the pistol, not the perceived recoil from the cartridge.

The choice of the 10mm was questionable to begin with, and the execution of that choice, through the pistol selected, made it a completely foolish execution of the concept.

The people that complained, both men and women, had a legitimate complaint, and the FBI needed to dump that concept.

Dunning Kruger effect. I've seen it with the two trainees I've been involved in bouncing. They don't know that they're incompetent.

Some folks are just not cut out for the job and it's hard to accept

Having done the military training pipeline in Navy fighters, it's always easier to get the trainees to pass.

It's a pain in the ass to try to legitimately get non-hackers bounced from the program, even when you have all your ducks in a row it's very likely you get a "train them again" and start from scratch.

I can't imagine having the motivation to try to screw someone over and bounce them unjustly, even just due to the time and effort involved to make that happen from a paperwork / documentation standpoint.

Some people have excelled their entire life and then get to a point they just can't hack it. I've seen a guy, hard charging and trying his ass off just not be able to hack anything beyond basic flight in fighters. It wasn't like he didn't try to improve, it's just his skill bucket was full. I imagine it's very sobering.

“Snider is among a dozen women who accused the FBI of gender discrimination at its training academy, detailing their allegations in a complaint last month to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. One of the women also claimed she suffered discrimination because of her race and another because of a disability.
Snider, along with nine of the other women, washed out of the academy during the tactics training. Some continue to work for the FBI but not as agents.“

I’d like to know the percentage of failure by sex and the reasons for failure. Certainly the school would want to identify any training issues.

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
This crap reminds me of why the 10mm was no longer used by the FBI.

No, that's not even close. The FBI foolishly adopted a large cartridge, and even more foolishly a very large pistol. People with smaller hands, that were otherwise solid shooters struggled to shoot well due to the size of the pistol, not the perceived recoil from the cartridge.

The choice of the 10mm was questionable to begin with, and the execution of that choice, through the pistol selected, made it a completely foolish execution of the concept.

The people that complained, both men and women, had a legitimate complaint, and the FBI needed to dump that concept.

I’m not going to debate this after this post, but the FBI killed the 10mm because mostly female agents had trouble with accurate follow-up shots. I’ve been told this face-to-face by several now retired agents. The problems with the pistols could’ve been easily fixed, but there was no dressing up the problems with female agents and the round. PC crap.

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
This crap reminds me of why the 10mm was no longer used by the FBI.

No, that's not even close. The FBI foolishly adopted a large cartridge, and even more foolishly a very large pistol. People with smaller hands, that were otherwise solid shooters struggled to shoot well due to the size of the pistol, not the perceived recoil from the cartridge.

The choice of the 10mm was questionable to begin with, and the execution of that choice, through the pistol selected, made it a completely foolish execution of the concept.

The people that complained, both men and women, had a legitimate complaint, and the FBI needed to dump that concept.

Hey, KSP had no problem with the 1076 for almost 20 years. Maybe they hire a more manly small handed shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:

quote:

Originally posted by PowerSurge:
This crap reminds me of why the 10mm was no longer used by the FBI.

No, that's not even close. The FBI foolishly adopted a large cartridge, and even more foolishly a very large pistol. People with smaller hands, that were otherwise solid shooters struggled to shoot well due to the size of the pistol, not the perceived recoil from the cartridge.

The choice of the 10mm was questionable to begin with, and the execution of that choice, through the pistol selected, made it a completely foolish execution of the concept.

The people that complained, both men and women, had a legitimate complaint, and the FBI needed to dump that concept.

I’m not going to debate this after this post, but the FBI killed the 10mm because mostly female agents had trouble with accurate follow-up shots. I’ve been told this face-to-face by several now retired agents. The problems with the pistols could’ve been easily fixed, but there was no dressing up the problems with female agents and the round. PC crap.

Ask enough questions in bars and you'll come away convinced that you really can't shoot at enemy Soldiers with an M2 machine gun. You really do have to shoot those .50 Cal slugs at their canteens. Experienced guys will tell you this. I heard it from experienced guys, who wanted to sound worldly. They'll also tell you a .50 Cal bullet will take an arm off even if it misses you by a clean three feet, among other trivia impossible by the laws of God and man.

A story isn't necessarily true just because it's got legs.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:
Ask enough questions in bars and you'll come away convinced that you really can't shoot at enemy Soldiers with an M2 machine gun. You really do have to shoot those .50 Cal slugs at their canteens. Experienced guys will tell you this. I heard it from experienced guys, who wanted to sound worldly. They'll also tell you a .50 Cal bullet will take an arm off even if it misses you by a clean three feet, among other trivia impossible by the laws of God and man.

A story isn't necessarily true just because it's got legs.

Very true.

Was her name Tawana Brawley?

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Having done the military training pipeline in Navy fighters, it's always easier to get the trainees to pass. It's a pain in the ass to try to legitimately get non-hackers bounced from the program, even when you have all your ducks in a row it's very likely you get a "train them again" and start from scratch.

Absolutely! I can't comment on LEO training but teaching Advanced Strike in the Naval Aviation Training Command in A-4 Skyhawks it was difficult to wash out flight students, especially if they were female or foreign nationals. Most often they got more than enough chances to correct any issues.

^^

when I was a cop, minorities and women were given many, many, many more chances then white males...

during training

force on force training

simple qualification for firearms (I saw one girl spend a MONTH at the range every day for eight hours trying to qualify...the instructor was given a pallet of 22 ammo. LITERALLY a pallet (thousands of rounds) to get her to be able to shoot-and then qualify on a 9mm Sig P229. And I saw her 70% qual target after that....)

during field training (if someone is gonna be a no go, and its a woman or minority-boom new FTO assigned)

during the academy-my "leader" had me mentor (read that as help her read; really, she had a fourth grade reading level) a female who could not have passed the 8th grade reading and comprehension tests to even be there....and she failed every quiz, week after week after week (when every white male had twos fails and it's bye bye)....when I told the "leader" she will never pass-he blamed me!!....I told him I couldn't take the tests for her and walked out of the office...also got rode hard after that day until I graduated

quote:

Originally posted by mojojojo:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
Having done the military training pipeline in Navy fighters, it's always easier to get the trainees to pass. It's a pain in the ass to try to legitimately get non-hackers bounced from the program, even when you have all your ducks in a row it's very likely you get a "train them again" and start from scratch.

Absolutely! I can't comment on LEO training but teaching Advanced Strike in the Naval Aviation Training Command in A-4 Skyhawks it was difficult to wash out flight students, especially if they were female or foreign nationals. Most often they got more than enough chances to correct any issues.

My thought goes back to Ltjg Dunai

quote:

Originally posted by dwd1985:
When I was a young officer at The Basic School, we had a female (also a minority) lieutenant who could NOT pass swim qual. All of the males who failed to pass during the required phase were recycled, but not her. she was allowed to proceed and continue to re-test over and over and over. you could not graduate TBS if you didnt pass swim qual. The morning of graduation, she was given another chance, and "passed", then had to change over into dress uniform for graduation.

We had a female at USNA that barely passed the incoming PRT and failed it continually for the next 2 years. On and off medical chits, reasons to not have to take it, more failures when she was forced to take the pushups / situps / 1.5 mile run.

It wasn't until her junior year, in the fall, on a beautiful cool evening that she took a remedial 'test' with only one other person present that she 'passed'. Oh, did I mention that she was outside of physical weight & body fat standards and had been the entire time?

Thankfully they wouldn't waive the physical weight / BF tests and after 2.5 years she finally got bounced but didn't have to serve fleet time or pay back the education (which you are supposed to do if you stay >2 years).

And I'll add that she was a difficult person to be around, even more so for the other females that were hacking the program. Semi-book smart but she couldn't lead a pack of fat kids across the street to Krispy Kreme with the HOT DONUTS NOW sign flashing.

quote:

The FBI foolishly adopted a large cartridge, and even more foolishly a very large pistol.

I remember many years back case law was developed making the failure of the firearm's qualifications during the academy not a basis for failing. The department was required to find a suitable but similar handgun and substitute it. In reality, not that difficult a task. At the time we carried the S&W659. A 6906 could be substituted.

During a instructor stint in our NJ academy we held the Basic Firearm's Course for a group.

Two female officers were retreads from the prior academy as they could not pass in the allotted two week time frame.

Their attitude during the retraining was that it was a big joke. Some of the instructor attitudes with them wasn't that much better.

During the week they could bot come close to passing. Then on the very last day, on another range facility outside of our views...they passed.

Wasn't long after both were gone from their department on a criminal charge.

quote:

A 10-year-old boy fell to his death Tuesday afternoon while he and some friends were setting off fireworks on the roof of a school. Today, a township police officer and her husband were charged with selling the fireworks to the boys, the police said.
The boy, Luis Agusto Perez of North Bergen, had climbed to the roof of the Hudson Academy here, and he and his friends were launching bottle rockets over the western slope of the Palisades.