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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

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Originally posted by Palm:

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:
To me this is a bit like a person building a pit trap in their back yard to catch someone they know has been on their property. The railroad surely had some indication of problems with pilferage and wanted to catch those responsible. Setting up your own sting operation isn't too smart, regardless of intent. I doubt any PD is going to endorse that.

Railroad police typically have full police powers. This isn't some fly by night security operation.

Yeah, I do get that but it wasn't the point I was trying to make. I worked in the biz and understand that all of these large transportation companies (and many large retailer's too) have entire departments committed to security and loss prevention. Maybe comparing it to a pit trap in a back yard was a poor choice. I wasn't disputing the quality or need of the railroad policing. Rather, that the local PD isn't going to endorse it if they're not tied to the operation. At least (IMHO) why would they. What's the benefit to Chicago PD really. Stopping some Nike shoes from being ripped off out of a staged container seems like bad PR to me. No matter if it's the NS or the Chicago PD running the deal. Maybe that's just the best way to catch the bad guys I guess.

Being that in general these sorts of thefts tend to be an intricate ring with multiple players. And not just some random Theft. You set the bait car and when you get the guy stealing them, generally they don’t want to get holding the bag alone, so they tell you who they were stealing them for, who fences them, and who told them which car was going to be where with what they were wanting to steal.
It brings down a whole ring. Being centrally located in Chicago I bet those goods are distributed to folks all across the country to sell.
So then that leads you down to the smaller players in smaller cities.

Theft bait setups are great tools and quite effective.

And yes CPD would benefit as I promise you these Theft rings don’t solely operate on railroad lines, they have people hitting warehouses, and stores elsewhere.

A sole their looking for a quick hit is not going to bother with a train car they are going to go pull door handles in a parking lot.
Something like this is organized.

Black - appreciate the detailed explanation but I think the point is being missed still. I probably didn't explain my point that well to be honest. It may in fact be a point that we won't really agree on.

Bear in mind I have no intention of speaking for Jim but I came into the thread with his comments on my mind. I think he was trying to make a point (that was missed by some) on the specific "bait" being used and I was discussing my thoughts with that in consideration. Not whether or not sting operations have value in this situation or otherwise. I'm certain they do and didn't mean to sidetrack into that conversation. My feeling is that the story that plays out in the media isn't going to be favorable when it reads "NS/Chicago PD bait teens with Nikes!" I think folks will indeed think like Jim was suggesting, that they will sadly interpret this in racial terms. I'm not sure on his intention but that's how I took the comments.

Let's face reality. Lots of folks in and around the south side of Chicago that commit these crimes are black. The bait was surely a good bait for the targeted criminals. And I get it's also bigger than a few dudes. Trying to tackle a crime ring takes several approaches I'd guess. But you're also talking about a city that struggling with deep racial divides. I lived in downtown Chicago. I've had my life threatened there for being white 20 years ago. I've also been down to and worked around the rail yards in several cities. These are almost always in the crappiest parts of town as you probably know.

So I'm not trying to debate the value to LE but rather the perception and value to the community (in the long run). I guess when I teach my children about trust I'm not going to try to help them fail. So I feel maybe we need to rethink things a little. Who really loses here the most with this sting? The companies have insurance or even if they're self-insured they can write off the losses. The PD looks bad because it looks like they trying to trick people into committing crimes, even though that's not the case.

Sting operations are done because they work. We have all seen the bait car for car thieves, the bait package for the porch pirates.

In this case, the community activists were upset because their people (or folks) got caught. Saying it was a too tempting target that overwhelmed the arrested suspects is BS. Saying they aren't real thieves, they are only causal thieves who just got caught up in the moment of committing a crime of opportunity. Again, BS, they stole something that wasn't theirs. There should be consequences for their actions. How many crimes of opportunities have these assholes committed?

The railroad cops are dealing with trains being hit and pallets of guns being stolen. So I will applaud them for doing anything they can to stop it, identify and arrest the suspects.

Read this article and you will get a good idea of the real problems in Chicago and other cities:

The Real Reasons for Chicago's Deadly Crime Wave by Jack Dunphy

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Who really loses here the most with this sting? The companies have insurance or even if they're self-insured they can write off the losses. The PD looks bad because it looks like they trying to trick people into committing crimes, even though that's not the case.

The criminals are the ones that loose with the stings that is the point.

Me and others who actually PAY for Nike products are the ones that loose when folks say, ohh the company can just write it off or are insured.
The company raises the price of the products in both instances which is paid for by actual consumers.

The police TRICKED no one no matter what the media says.
They did not fly a flag that said FREE NIKES.
It is well known you just don’t get to go taking what is not yours No matter what was in the car, Nike’s, lawnmowers, caskets, widgets, it makes no difference.
On top of that Norfolk Southern made no mention of the contents. The community activists said that is what was in the car.
How did the thieves know what was inside in the first place?

The point is people want to give people every excuse in the book these days for not taking responsibility for their criminal actions.

Getting caught and actually punishing people for their actions needs to prevaile again.

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

...
The point is people want to give people every excuse in the book these days for not taking responsibility for their criminal actions.

Getting caught and actually punishing people for their actions needs to prevaile again.

This is really the point. And I agree with this ideology and principle...and with you. However, we operate in a world that perception is also your reality. This to me means that we have to all tread carefully with our actions. If a good sting operation is going to look bad in the public's eyes, then maybe it's not as good as it seems. That subtle point is what I was trying to discuss.

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

...
The point is people want to give people every excuse in the book these days for not taking responsibility for their criminal actions.

Getting caught and actually punishing people for their actions needs to prevaile again.

This is really the point. And I agree with this ideology and principle...and with you. However, we operate in a world that perception is also your reality. This to me means that we have to all tread carefully with our actions. If a good sting operation is going to look bad in the public's eyes, then maybe it's not as good as it seems. That subtle point is what I was trying to discuss.

Wrong. Perception is a perceived reality it is not reality.
It is the perceived reality that an agenda wants you to believe.
Allow that “reality” to slide and abide by it and allowing to happen is how we got here in the first place. The more you allow to slide in the name of perception the more people will attempt to get away with.

I guess we've hit our impasse. I disagree. Perception can very much become reality for someone. Look at the guy who stole the plane yesterday. He had a job, was supposedly a gifted HS athlete, and shocked family but somehow was convinced he was a broken man with no hope. You think kids living in the inner city of Chicago have a lot of hope in their reality?

I'm with Black, perception is just that, perception, which is not necessarily supported by facts. Reality is firmly based on facts.

As Vincent Bugliosi famously said, "people are entitled to their own opinions, they are not entitled to their own facts."

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:
I guess we've hit our impasse. I disagree. Perception can very much become reality for someone. Look at the guy who stole the plane yesterday. He had a job, was supposedly a gifted HS athlete, and shocked family but somehow was convinced he was a broken man with no hope. You think kids living in the inner city of Chicago have a lot of hope in their reality?

So your way to fix it is just cater to it and allow it to happen?? Sadly this is the type of belief that got us here in the first place.
The problem just becomes worse and worse for society as a whole.
If we Hold individuals responsible for their actions with enough consequnce people will learn but you don’t just give them free reign.

This kind of thinking gave us the “just give them space” mentality when folks riot. What do we allow next????? Mob rule???
The mob precieved you as harassing one of theirs, they get to attack you?

We did not get into this PC mess overnight and it is going to take a generation or a few to break it but it will never break if we keep catering to it.

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

So your way to fix it is just cater to it and allow it to happen??

I didn't say that. I implied I don't think setting up a container full of Nike shoes in the corner of the rail yard is generating good faith with the community, no matter if it's a good way to catch the bad guys. I suggested we rethink things. I used to shop at Dominick's across the street from the Cabrini Green projects. I also had two roommates from the Hillside projects in Milwaukee. I've slept there. I've seen different sides to this story. I have my own feelings that are grounded in reality. I've watched talented young men believe all they were good at was stealing things.

quote:

Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

...
The point is people want to give people every excuse in the book these days for not taking responsibility for their criminal actions.

Getting caught and actually punishing people for their actions needs to prevaile again.

This is really the point. And I agree with this ideology and principle...and with you. However, we operate in a world that perception is also your reality. This to me means that we have to all tread carefully with our actions. If a good sting operation is going to look bad in the public's eyes, then maybe it's not as good as it seems. That subtle point is what I was trying to discuss.

How then are the police to battle this: https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2...teal-scores-of-guns/

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Originally posted by ulsterman:

How then are the police to battle this: https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2...teal-scores-of-guns/

More stings clearly.

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

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Originally posted by Black92LX:

So your way to fix it is just cater to it and allow it to happen??

I didn't say that. I implied I don't think setting up a container full of Nike shoes in the corner of the rail yard is generating good faith with the community, no matter if it's a good way to catch the bad guys. I suggested we rethink things. I used to shop at Dominick's across the street from the Cabrini Green projects. I also had two roommates from the Hillside projects in Milwaukee. I've slept there. I've seen different sides to this story. I have my own feelings that are grounded in reality. I've watched talented young men believe all they were good at was stealing things.

I am well versed in this as well and deal with it daily.
But just because they believe that is all they are good at they still know it is wrong and should suffer the consequences.
But there needs to be consequences. That does not mean that after the consequences you just drop them back out. We (the community) need to help them with opportunities better themselves. Which there are lots currently and if they don’t take the help that is on them.

I am not good at much but that does not mean if I am good at breaking the law and think all I am good for I get a free pass to keep doing it.

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Originally posted by ulsterman:
Chicago

Shitcago

I don’t think it makes a damn bit of difference whether talented young men believe all they are good at is stealing things. The bottom line is that stealing is against the law. It used to be punished. When we started making excuses and apologizing for catching and punishing some special classes of people for breaking the law, we started down a treacherous road. We’re already seeing the results of taking that path.

If thieves break into your house because you have nice things, are you somehow at fault for tempting them?

The fuzzy thinking exhibited by people mystifies me.

There is a difference between police work and social work. I do not want the police being social workers. Besides poverty there are a host of more important factors driving criminal behavior.

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Originally posted by arfmel:
...The bottom line is that stealing is against the law. It used to be punished. ...
The fuzzy thinking exhibited by people mystifies me.

I get that. Don't we have the highest incarceration rate in the world?

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

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Originally posted by arfmel:
...The bottom line is that stealing is against the law. It used to be punished. ...
The fuzzy thinking exhibited by people mystifies me.

I get that. Don't we have the highest incarceration rate in the world?

If we do, it’s probably related to the effectiveness and efforts of our law enforcement and the number of people who don’t seem to grasp the fact that breaking the law has consequences, or at least it used to. Giving people a pass for committing crimes because we have high incarceration rates doesn’t make sense, unless the ultimate objective is to increase lawlessness.

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Originally posted by bigeinkcmo:

quote:

Originally posted by ulsterman:

How then are the police to battle this: https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2...teal-scores-of-guns/

More stings clearly.

I was taught to debate your point with passion and intelligence. You didn't.

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Originally posted by ulsterman:
How then are the police to battle this: https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2...teal-scores-of-guns/

Operation Eldest Son?