SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Which business or private jets come close to fighter/military performance?
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I'm Fine |
And how close are they? Is it no contest? Just as maneuverable, but not as fast ? Talk to me I'm Sitting at the airport watching them take off at the moment.... ------------------ SBrooks | ||
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Nosce te ipsum |
Absolutely not in speed, but I saw a pair of small kit-built jets literally LEAP off the tarmac, vaulting nearly straight up into the sky, at a fly-in at Mariposa's airport (near to Yosemite) one year. They were jumping about the sky like a couple of swallows. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Best thing to get are Eastern Block trainer jets, L-39s and the like. Still won't come close to a Tomcat, Eagle, or Hornet - but down low it'll be plenty of fun for those who are so inclined. And without the thrust to keep it turning level or climbing (ie, afterburning turbofan engines), nothing will be as maneuverable as a military jet. Sure something can turn tighter, but a jet will just go straight up and pitch back down. | |||
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| Member |
There is one supersonic private jet that has been in development since 2002, deliveries starting 2023. Yours for only 120 million each. Plus inflation. Aerion AS2, A billionaire and ever-changing aviation heavy hitter partners are bringing it to market. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
I honestly see that industry getting smoked check for round the world flight with things like SpaceX Starhopper with short sub and orbital flights around the world. | |||
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Member |
The LearJet 23 was originally designed as a ground-attack aircraft for the Swiss Military. Here is a short history...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learjet  "If you’re a leader, you lead the way. Not just on the easy ones; you take the tough ones too…” – MAJ Richard D. Winters (1918-2011), E Company, 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil... Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel." - Isaiah 5:20,24 | |||
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| Member |
The 20 series Learjets were hotrods. The Sabreliners, especially the 39 and 60, were descendants from the F86, and performed and maneuvered well. The Sabre60 had a great roll rate. Bill Lear designed the Lear 26 based on a Swiss fighter design, the P-16. It uses the same engines as the T-38, though it's not a supersonic design. It will easily roll though its max speeds under power, and has to be pulled back, and achieving a 12,000 fpm climb is no problem. All the 20 series peform very well. They're just not welcome in many places now, being Stage II noise airplanes. I used to do atmospheric research and thunderstorm penetration in a Lear 35, which doesn't have the performance of the 20 series Lears, but is still maneuverable and has respectable performance. I've had it upside down in thunderstorms before. | |||
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| Member |
I think the Citation X is suppose to be the fastest civilian business jet … Or at least I've heard that. Fun game to be playing in. MDS | |||
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Character, above all else |
First, "performance" needs to be defined. Are you talking about: - G onset rate? - Certified G loading? - Turn/pitch rate? - Turn radius? - Acceleration? - Max speed? - Thrust-to-weight ratio? Fighters win all of those hands down. But the ability to take your friends a couple of thousand miles to a weekend getaway destination on your schedule? No contest, the biz jet wins that performance category every time.  "The Truth, when first uttered, is always considered heresy." | |||
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| Just because you can, doesn't mean you should |
About as close as a high performance street car is to a Formula one car. In both cases, they are built for a very specific need and those needs are very different. ___________________________ Avoid buying ChiCom/CCP products whenever possible. | |||
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| Member |
No comparison really unless you go back to the F-86. I have over 10,000 hrs in Lear 23,24,25,31,35,45,55,& 60 series, and the 24 and 60 models have the best climb performance. Most Gulfstream models have similar climb performance but have a higher Mach limit, the G-650 Mach limit is around .96 IIRC. When you consider the century series fighters (F-100 thru F-106) some have climb rates 3 or 4 times greater than any corporate jet.BTW, I consider the F-4 to be a century series aircraft.The previously mentioned L-39 couldn't keep up with any Lear with one engine shut down | |||
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Member |
I believe this is still the case, at least as far as VMax is concerned. IIRC, some interior space is sacrificed for performance. The Enemy's gate is down. | |||
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| Ammoholic |
A friend of mine flew a Lear 28 for a local guy. That thing climbed like a homesick angel and was loud as hell doing it. I always got a grin when he left town, “Joe (the owner) is going somewhere fun and everyone within several miles knows it.” Of course Kurt (my buddy who flew it) joked that SOP was, “Top the tanks, start one engine, call for taxi clearance, and declare a fuel emergency.” Apparently those turbojet engines burned as much fuel idling on the ground as they did at full throttle at altitude. He did say that it was common practice to file for a destination far beyond the intended, then when getting close to the intended, tell the controller they had a change of plan and needed to land where they originally intended, resulting in a slam dunk. He said after a while some of the controllers got wise and he’d get stuff like, “Are you really going to Portland or do you just want to stay high and slam dunk into SFO?” ETA: Wasn’t the Sabreliner one of the first business jets, and wasn’t it based on the F86? Seems like since then fighter performance has gone through the roof while business jets have also progressed greatly but in other directions. | |||
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| Team Apathy |
A related question: can a private citizen purchase decommissioned fighters/other jets at surplus or is it prohibited? Like an old F4 or F14? | |||
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Charmingly unsophisticated |
Not sure about US fighters...there are several privately owned MiGs and whatnot though. And didn't some Marine officer buy an A/V-8? _______________________________ The artist formerly known as AllenInWV | |||
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אַרְיֵה |
Our own mojojojo? הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Ammoholic |
Yes, at least as far as an F4. I want to say that there was an F18 for sale several years ago also (for 20 million or so). With any fighter, you’d never get any of the weapons systems or the electronics involved in targeting, etc. The airframe would have to be de-mil’d. I believe the challenge would be, “Great, you bought it, now what can you do with it?” Export would almost certainly be a no-go, and would involved tons of paperwork and approvals if it wasn’t. Using it in the US would require some sort of certification / authorization from the FAA, and they have gotten rather reluctant on that since some A-hole was buzzing around supersonic over the LAX area in his private ex military jet (F4 if I remember correctly) several years ago causing mayhem with ATC trying to handle airliners. Getting parts to maintain would likely also be a challenge... Still, if a guy has the coin... | |||
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| Member |
Obtaining a US military supersonic fighter can be difficult,buying one all ready in the US only requires $$. The F-104 I flew in 96 was one of the first supersonic X military fighters certified by the FAA and it took me a year to complete the process. The US will not sell any fighters to civilians. Obtaining parts was our biggest obstacle, particularly ejection seats.Most jets today come from foreign countries,our 104's came from Norway The only difference between Men and Boys is the price of their toys | |||
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| אַרְיֵה |
I would be  הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Charmingly unsophisticated |
I was thinking he is a lot younger than this guy. This article originally appeared in the March 2018 issue of Military Officer. Whether you're an adrenaline junkie or a passionate volunteer, there are many ways to make your post-working life personally rewarding. Here's how Lt. Col. Art Nalls, USMC (Ret), did it. When Nalls retired from the Marine Corps in 1998, he didn't leave his love of flying behind. As he pursued a career in real estate investing, the likelihood of sitting in a cockpit again seemed remote. Still, Nalls kept up with the flight community, attending monthly Marine Corps Aviation Association meetings. After squirreling away some cash, he made an unusual private purchase: a Russian Yakovlev Yak-3 fighter. The World War II-era aircraft was the first of five former military planes he would eventually own. “It was a thoroughbred, a rocket ship that took a while to learn how to land. I'd have two landings that were good and then one that absolutely scared the crap out of me,” Nalls explains. “But at a cocktail party, an old Navy [landing signal officer] explained how to land. … And when I did it and coasted it to an easy turnoff midfield, … I [felt] invincible.” A 1939 Piper Cub and L-39 Albatross jet followed, but Nalls missed his favorite plane from his Marine Corps days - the AV-8A Harrier. In 2005, he began wondering if he could get his hands on one, and the timing couldn't have been better: The Royal Navy was starting to decommission its Sea Harriers. “We made a call to the FAA and asked [if it was possible to fly one as a civilian] and they said, 'Yeah, no one has done it before, but we think there's a path forward for you,' ” Nalls says. So he bought one. The FA2 Sea Harrier was stripped of its weapons and military navigation and communications systems, and Nalls shipped it - in pieces - to St. Mary's County, Md., where he keeps his planes. It took two years to reassemble it. Nalls later started a business, Nalls Aviation, which performs at air shows. With jet fuel alone costing up to $100 per minute, this is not a revenue-generating venture. But Nalls Aviation certainly keeps its founder on the young side of 64. “I work seven days a week. … My blood pressure is good. I pass the FAA physical. I have … bad knees, but nothing keeps me from flying.” This year, Nalls bought a second Harrier, a two-seat training aircraft. He'll use it to work with other pilots and support a DoD contract. He expects to keep flying for at least another decade and urges other retirees to think big after their military careers. “If it's your dream, follow it,” he says. And it looks like 104RFAST nailed it. He bought it from the UK. Shame....wonder why the US won't sell to its own citizens? _______________________________ The artist formerly known as AllenInWV | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Which business or private jets come close to fighter/military performance?
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