I was all set to buy a 2027 camry se awd, just looking for stock with preferred color and features.

But then talked to my friend who is an avid tesla fan and he got me thinking about a model 3 again (he recommends the Y but I'm partial to the 3; I could consider the Y as well).

Here's my balance sheet:

Camry se awd: expected out the door cost $40K
1. Maintenance 10 years / 50K miles: $1000 ($100 per year LOF), $3000 (30K/60K maintenance).
2. Gas 10 years: $6000
3. Proven car, reliable, performs sufficiently, AWD for additional safety.
4. Easy to take on trips (gas everywhere)
5. No FSD (but FSD only interesting for long highway drives; don't need around town).

3: expected out the door cost $45K
1. Maintenance: none?
2. Electricity: $4500; convenience of re-fueling at home. May need to upgrade my electrical panel for the charger - I don't have any more empty slots in the current panel. Sounds like this may cost an additional $2-4K.
3. Proven car but expensive to fix and limited to dealer service. RWD only (can't afford AWD trim). Expect to pay additional insurance premium.
4. Requires a little more trip planning for re-charges. May or may not introduce inconveniences. But, for trips, I'd likely take my truck anyway to allow for off-road options.
5. FSD available for long highway drives. Note: could use FSD around town and may do so as I age and also build confidence in FSD. But I'm fine w/o FSD and probably want to exercise my brain anyway.

Net 10 year cost delta looks like about $50K vs $52K (plus insurance adder, not sure how much). I'm gonna consider the net costs a wash.

If you guys agree, then the real difference is comfort for every day driving, convenience of re-fueling / maintenance (or lack thereof), possible benefit of FSD as I age, possible convenience for longer distance trips.

I suspect both handle sufficiently well but the AWD may be a plus. I don't care about acceleration - both are sufficient for me. I don't need the additional performance that the 3 would offer.

I know members have purchased both camry's and tesla's recently (although currently some delivery issues).

Am I missing anything that should be considered? The above is leading me to be somewhat neutral between the two (assuming tesla is at least the same quality and reliability as toyota).

Don't forget the potential spontaneous combustion of the lithium ion batteries - don't park it in your garage.

Sorry, but, to me, driving an EV is like driving an appliance - on/off switch and that's it.

I'm a car guy so heavily biased - my cars? A C6 427 Convertible and a Chevy SS both manual transmission cars.

You, obviously think of your cars as transportation only, and that's fine - different strokes. But the fire risk is real.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Don’t buy new EV’s. I think the best of both worlds, used Model 3 AWD. There are a million EV’s coming off lease. I’ve owned an EV since 2014. You buy them used, not new, as they depreciate extremely quickly.

You have to decide for yourself. Do you ever take road trips? Are they regular? If so, Yota. If not, Tesla. I don’t like Teslas myself (lack of physical HVAC controls, no dash, iPad only, etc) but they are a great option. I’ve looked at used Model 3 AWD models and they can be had for low $30k range with low mileage.

Plan on spending double for tires, twice as often on the tesla. It's much heavier, and the EV specific tires have a foam lining to make them quieter. They are going to be a lot more expensive than the camry tires.

I say Camry all the way. I also really despise not having knobs and buttons in a car, and the Tesla has everything tied to that obnoxiously huge screen.

Thanks for the inputs guys.

Well, I think decision is made. I talked to my friend again, avid EV proponent that he is, and to my surprise, he thinks camry is the way to go for me. The critical factor is the FSD; if I don't really intend to use it often (he uses it daily), then the 3 is not really worth the extra cost, the electrical work, the insurance premium adders (sounds like a good 50% more than what I would expect to pay for the camry) and the FSD subscription.

So, I'm back at Camry again. Except he suggested something w/ a hatchback and more cargo space. But I've got the truck for that if needed.

Thanks all - Camry is it.

The Camry is one of the best selling cars in the world. Toyota apparently sells more Camry's then Mercedes sells......CARS.

With that comes the "Glock effect". Parts are everywhere. The history of reliability is there. Finding somebody to work on a Camry is trivial. Body panel replacement/insurance etc. is going to be far cheaper if needed.

Combine that with a vehicle that is going to provide the ability to go long distance easily if you so desire.

I have nothing inherently against Tesla's or EV's etc. I am a bit of car guy and as a car guy Tesla's are pretty damn cool cars. I just don't think EV is quite ready for prime time and the fact is Tesla's are going to be far more expensive to repair etc. if needed.

So with that said I say go for the Camry. Its the better all around piece of transportation IMO. If you simply want a cool/car guy car for local stuff hey give the Tesla a go. Just don't think its the better appliance.

My two cents which is worth about what you paid for it.

I would not have an EV as my only vehicle.

I would not buy an EV new. You can get low-mileage options for 2/3 the cost of new. I just bought a BMW i4 with 15k miles for about $30k less than new. You can buy a Mercedes S-class for $40k. Definitely would want a 240v level-2 charger though.

I'd go with Pizza Guy's C6 or the SS!

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:

3: expected out the door cost $45K
1. Maintenance: none?

Maintenance is NOT none/ZERO, and as so many believe that is the case, one should be cautious if considering a used EV.

EVs DEFINITELY have Coolant, and Oil(s), which cool and lubricate the Differential(s) and other major components of the 'power train'. Actually, the Cooling System in a Tesla quite a bit more complex than that of an ICE vehicle, in that it has two separate loops, with separate pumps; One that cools the ECU and the Battery Modules, and another that's for the Power-Train, which cools the PCS (Power Conversion System - Charger & DC-DC Converter), the Inverter and the cools an Oil to Water Plate Heat Exchanger to cool the Gear Box and Differential Oil(s). It even has an Oil Pump with an Oil Filter. Unlike an ICE vehicle, the cooling system can and does run when the car is not running. And just like an ICE vehicle, you should change the fluids periodically.

Nothing to do with the OP's choice the Camry is a very good capable Japanese vehicle, assembled in Kentucky, it's made a lot of people money, helped schools, and local areas by bringing good jobs there.

Konta, you are correct on home charging, you'll need either 40, 50 or 60 circuit to run a charger, depending on it's power, plug in vs direct wire and if the panel is full it would be expensive to upgrade.

However there are EV aftermarket chargers with the ability to work within that limited setup, they have power management circuits that look at the power draw in the panel and throttle the charger up and down to get around your problem. You'd need an electrician of course, many power companies offer rebates if you install a home charger, in FL mine did and it fully covered the cost of $700 it cost to put in one at home, 60amp, hard wired with NEMA plug for EVs.

Also you'll find that charging at home is pennies on the dollar vs using other chargers, I do know that Tesla owners pay less at Tesla chargers than other brands.

Now to be clear I wasn't an EV guy, and felt the way many did about them, but to be fair felt time to address some what has been posted about EV,

For me, I can equivocatly state none of it is valid, well, almost none.

Yes Tires can be expensive, but it depends more on the type of tire, it's size, and manufacturer, you know, just like the tires on a Ferrari cost more than the tires on a Ford Maverick Pickup.

Maintenance, yes it's not zero, you have to still perform a few things, no difference than a ICE vehicle. Tire Rotation, Brake Pads, heres the schedule a Tesla Model 3, incidentally pending anything going wrong with the cooling system Tesla says there is no need to change out the large battery coolant, ever.

Tires: Rotate every 6,250 miles (10,000 km) or if tread depth difference exceeds 2/32 inch (1.5 mm).

Cabin Air Filter: Replace every 2 years.

Brake Fluid: Perform a health check every 4 years and replace only if necessary.

Wiper Blades: Replace every 1 year.

Brake Calipers: Clean and lubricate annually, or every 12,500 miles in areas where roads are salted during winter.

HV Battery Coolant: No scheduled replacement is required for the life of the vehicle under most circumstances.

BTW the one pedal driving in EV's extends the brake pad and rotor life significantly, I've read where drivers have gone over 80,000 miles without having to do anything since the car uses regenerative braking. Mine does this and it's fantastic.

quote:

Don't forget the potential spontaneous combustion of the lithium ion batteries - don't park it in your garage.

Car guy here too, and disclaimer, I have two EV's they are garaged, and have been charged in the garage for over a year. Zero incidents or problems.

Research shows that you're at a higher risk for a fire from your ICE vehicles than an EV of course there are more ICE than EV on the road, but the fact is, concern over EV charging fires isn't a thing.

One widely cited US analysis (drawing on NTSB/BTS-style data and sales/registrations, often referenced for ~2012–2021/2022 periods): ~25 fires per 100,000 EVs sold/registered vs. ~1,530 per 100,000 gasoline vehicles (and higher still for some hybrid figures in that particular methodology). This implies ICE vehicles experience on the order of ~60 times more fires on a per-vehicle basis in that framing.

True once a battery pack goes up it's quite difficult to stop, but to flat out state that you need to park outside because it will burn up is absurd, but let your gas car catch on fire with a full tank of $5 a gallon fuel and it's going to be one spectacular inferno.

Overall US vehicle/highway vehicle fires: Roughly 190,000–215,000 vehicle fires per year in recent periods (NFPA estimates; e.g., ~215,000 annual average vehicle fires 2018–2022, with highway vehicles the large majority; ~179,000–201,000 highway vehicle fires in specific recent years such as 2022–2024). The vast majority involve ICE vehicles.

EV fires: Much smaller in absolute terms. NIST multi-source estimates (adjusting for under-reporting in NFIRS) put battery-electric vehicle (BEV) car fires on the order of a few hundred per year by the early-mid 2020s (e.g., estimated ~418 BEV car fires in 2023 in one set of figures, with cumulative estimates over longer periods in the low thousands). Raw NFIRS keyword-based counts of reported “electric/hybrid/Tesla/etc.” vehicle fires are even lower (tens per year in earlier years, rising into the low dozens or higher as the fleet grew). Plug-in vehicles overall are higher than pure BEVs but still a tiny fraction of total vehicle fires.

EV share of the light-duty fleet has grown from well under 1% earlier in the period to roughly ~2%+ by the mid-2020s (millions of BEVs + PHEVs on the road by 2024–2025, vs. ~260+ million total light-duty vehicles). Even with growth, EVs account for a very small percentage of total fires.

Bottom line for the past ~5 years (roughly 2021–2026): ICE vehicles account for the overwhelming majority of the ~200,000 annual vehicle fires. EVs experience fires at substantially lower rates per vehicle (or vehicle-year) in the available comparative data, and their absolute fire counts, while rising with fleet growth, remain a small fraction of the total. Exact nationwide absolute tallies for pure EV vs. pure ICE fires over precisely the last five years are not published in a single official series due to coding limitations.

Promoting ICE over EV due to potential fire hazards is nothing more than the same thing Horse and Buggy sales people said about Gas vehicles being "explosion engines" when they started to appear and would cause fires...

My point is to clear up some of the incorrect statements made about EV's, I'm converted, but I wouldn't be against a nice 70 big block C3 in the garage either. But they are highly subject to fires, from age, lack of proper maintenance, no different than anything else.

I think you'll be very happy with the Camry, you'll just have to make peace with the fact you didn't get a Tesla. It sounded like you were trying to talk yourself into a Tesla because they are really, really cool.

I kept trying to talk myself into one because I think they make sense on a lot of levels but in the end an ICE vehicle just fits my needs better.
I am still noodling on a Slate truck and waiting to see the Ford Fathom but I did get over my "need" for a Rivian R2 when I kept seeing all the early launch problems.

Also the Camry has a lithium battery.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Also the Camry has a lithium battery.

OH NO! better park it way outside!

In Texas we can choose our energy providers and Tesla is one of them. The people I know who own Tesla’s use Tesla for energy and charge at night for free. That lowers cost of ownership a bit. None of the people I know who own Tesla’s would go back to ICE.

Eventually I will buy one with FSD when my eyesight gets worse as I age. It will be helpful in making my life easier. I would also have at least one other ICE vehicle.

I think another factor is whether you drive them until the wheel fall off. The Camry would hold its value much better if you decide to sell before it wears out.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Don't forget the potential spontaneous combustion of the lithium ion batteries - don't park it in your garage.

Car guy here too, and disclaimer, I have two EV's they are garaged, and have been charged in the garage for over a year. Zero incidents or problems.

Based on a sample of one, OK, two.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:Research shows that you're at a higher risk for a fire from your ICE vehicles than an EV of course there are more ICE than EV on the road, but the fact is, concern over EV charging fires isn't a thing.

I have no doubt that is true, but I imagine the data on ICE fires include all fires. How many ICE vehicles have spontaneously combusted while just sitting in the garage.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:One widely cited US analysis (drawing on NTSB/BTS-style data and sales/registrations, often referenced for ~2012–2021/2022 periods): ~25 fires per 100,000 EVs sold/registered vs. ~1,530 per 100,000 gasoline vehicles (and higher still for some hybrid figures in that particular methodology). This implies ICE vehicles experience on the order of ~60 times more fires on a per-vehicle basis in that framing.

True once a battery pack goes up it's quite difficult to stop, but to flat out state that you need to park outside because it will burn up is absurd, but let your gas car catch on fire with a full tank of $5 a gallon fuel and it's going to be one spectacular inferno.

Overall US vehicle/highway vehicle fires: Roughly 190,000–215,000 vehicle fires per year in recent periods (NFPA estimates; e.g., ~215,000 annual average vehicle fires 2018–2022, with highway vehicles the large majority; ~179,000–201,000 highway vehicle fires in specific recent years such as 2022–2024). The vast majority involve ICE vehicles.

EV fires: Much smaller in absolute terms. NIST multi-source estimates (adjusting for under-reporting in NFIRS) put battery-electric vehicle (BEV) car fires on the order of a few hundred per year by the early-mid 2020s (e.g., estimated ~418 BEV car fires in 2023 in one set of figures, with cumulative estimates over longer periods in the low thousands). Raw NFIRS keyword-based counts of reported “electric/hybrid/Tesla/etc.” vehicle fires are even lower (tens per year in earlier years, rising into the low dozens or higher as the fleet grew). Plug-in vehicles overall are higher than pure BEVs but still a tiny fraction of total vehicle fires.

I feel I have to resort to the quote popularized by Mark Twain: There are lies, damned lies and statistics.


Adios,

Pizza Bob

Which will give you more smiles per mile?
Buy that one.

Some states charge extra yearly registration fees for electric vehicles.

In Pennsylvania is $250.00 and Tennessee is at $274.00 and they have charts already in place for the fees going up each year.

I have posted this before. Tesla FSD is a GAME CHANGER. I let it drive me 90 percent of the time. (The car actually tracks this statistic, in the last 12 months 11,191 miles on FSD out of a total of 12,467 miles) Sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on the freeway, long drive home 30 plus miles late at night after a long day, it doesn't matter, I sit back put on some smooth music and relax until I pull up in my driveway.

All the other stuff good and bad, I don't care. FSD is that good (and it still is not perfect). I would not buy ANY other car, and all the naysayers will look back on this in a couple of years after your friends have FSD or you routinely take a Cyber cab with no steering wheel or pedals and say "AH, I get it now".

Edit, I should add to my comment that FSD is not perfect. It does some irritating things relating to parking (i like to park away from other cars) or choosing a lane that I might have not preferred, or maybe choosing a less that optimal path through a large parking lot, or maybe choosing a different route than I might have. BUT in my thousands of miles of letting it drive me, I have NEVER had to take over due to what would be considered an unsafe action or failure to react to a situation.

I see your decision is made, so I'll offer the following as "generic:" Additional considerations are insurance costs for each, repair parts availability for each (mentioned already), and repair time estimates for each. I remember reading not long ago about an insanely long repair time for a particular Tesla, due to availability of parts and qualified service facilities.

Konata—-Have you taken the 1/2 hour Tesla demo drive? You can put it on FSD out of the lot, select some place scenic 15 minutes away, let the Tesla drive you there. If you haven’t done that, you owe it to yourself.

Remember I just sold my Honda S2000–in many ways the ultimate driver’s car—-all because i was so blown away by FSD. It didn’t take long before it was clear that the Tesla is a better, safer driver than I am. I am particularly eager to get my wife used to it. The multiplicity of controls on the touchscreen makes it seem complicated, but:
1. Most of them are set-and-forget
2. Most controls can be voice-controlled by the Tesla’s built-in Grok app.

About maintenance: brakes pads will probably last the life of the car. Tires will wear out faster due to the weight, 15-30% faster (for OEM tires). Per Grok, real-world data says average is 32,000 miles on a set of tires. Replacement tires can be selected for greater mileage but at some cost in range. Note Ca is going to require replacement tires be low-rolling-resistance tires so as usual when the government gets involved, we have fewer choices.

For me, the idea of no oil changes or other regular service; no brake wear; cost of driving 300 miles about 1/2 that of gas (when gas is $5/gallon, at-home charging at night $.34/kWh)—the whole package just removes a lot of the hassle associated with owning a car. Maybe as much as going from American or European cars to Japanese cars back in the 80’s. Poof! Worry about car reliability just disappeared from the worry stack.

I don’t know how old you are. My wife and I are in our early 80’s; a lot of things can happen that may affect our ability to drive in the future. Maintaining mobility (automotive mobility) makes a huge difference.

Those are all rational reasons. The irrational is the excitement of moving into the future of driving. But if you don’t want to use FSD, the Model 3 is a damned exciting car to drive—leaves the Camry in the dust.