This happened not to far from where I live the other night and based on what I have read and researched my best guess is they were overweight and clipped a tree on the way out. There was also some kind of issue with the planes registration.
Truly sad but it would appear that it will come down to humman error
April 12, 2018, 03:12 PM
V-Tail
quote:
Originally posted by Kevmo: some kind of issue with the planes registration.
FAA website says "cert[ificate] terminated or in question." Registration pending.
That might be a problem, or it might just have been recently purchased and paperwork had not caught up yet.
הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
April 12, 2018, 03:16 PM
Georgeair
IANAP or an engineer, but looks like that plane has 4 seats, a gross weight of (at most) 3200# and an empty weight of 1800#. After fuel and gear, that seem like it's getting a little close?
The 4 seats should be a hint I guess, but no......
You only have integrity once. - imprezaguy02
April 12, 2018, 03:19 PM
Kevmo
quote:
Originally posted by Georgeair: IANAP or an engineer, but looks like that plane has 4 seats, a gross weight of (at most) 3200# and an empty weight of 1800#. After fuel and gear, that seem like it's getting a little close?
The 4 seats should be a hint I guess, but no......
That was one of the things I saw and questioned....I thought there was a 6 seat configuration of that plane but even at that, we used to have a Cherokee 6 and to fit 6 people in there you best be small
April 12, 2018, 03:23 PM
P250UA5
quote:
Originally posted by Georgeair: IANAP or an engineer, but looks like that plane has 4 seats, a gross weight of (at most) 3200# and an empty weight of 1800#. After fuel and gear, that seem like it's getting a little close?
The 4 seats should be a hint I guess, but no......
A PA-24 260B/260C has a 6 seat configuration. N9456P appears to have 3 windows, indicating a PA-24 260B or 260C model.
The Enemy's gate is down.
April 12, 2018, 03:24 PM
sigmonkey
With 6 people, CG starts getting real important to watch. Especially with "personal items".
Everyone wants to stick stuff in the back, when they should be sticking stuff forward.
But, there are many important things to look over before kicking chocks, and all we know the most important thing was the one they overlooked.
"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב!
April 12, 2018, 03:46 PM
JALLEN
I’m not particularly familiar with the PA-24, but every plane I have ever looked at in that category would take full seats or full tanks, never both unless the seats were filled with Ethiopian midgets.
I don’t know where they were based, or used to operating, but Scottsdale is about 2200’ ASL, and can be hot as the dickens, meaning an even higher density altitude which erodes performance. Hot, high, heavy is a bad combo.
What’s the engine on those 6 seaters?
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
April 12, 2018, 03:51 PM
P250UA5
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN: I’m not particularly familiar with the PA-24, but every plane I have ever looked at in that category would take full seats or full tanks, never both unless the seats were filled with Ethiopian midgets.
I don’t know where they were based, or used to operating, but Scottsdale is about 2200’ ASL, and can be hot as the dickens, meaning an even higher density altitude which erodes performance. Hot, high, heavy is a bad combo.
What’s the engine on those 6 seaters?
Sourced from Wikipedia:
quote:
Comanche 260
PA-24-260 with LoPresti Cowling on landing
PA-24-260B with custom paint In 1965 the first of four 260-horsepower (194 kW) versions of the Comanche was introduced. They were:
PA-24-260 (1965) PA-24-260B (1966 to 1968) PA-24-260C (1969 to 1972) PA-24-260TC A total of 1,029 airplanes were sold from the Comanche 260 line, including the 260TC. Thirty-eight Comanche 260s were delivered with carbureted engines; the rest used the fuel-injected Lycoming IO-540 engine.[citation needed]
The 260 had an empty weight of approximately 1,700 pounds and a maximum gross weight of 2,900 pounds. It had four seats, and a 90-US-gallon (340 L)-capacity auxiliary fuel system was available as an option. Cruise speed was advertised as 142-161 knots with fuel burn of 10 to 14 US gallons (38 to 53 L) per hour. New, they sold for approximately $30,740.[citation needed]
The 260B had an overall length six inches (152 mm) more than the previous models. This was due to a longer propeller spinner, not a longer fuselage. The 260B had a third side window and a provision for six seats. The fifth and sixth seats take up the entire baggage area and will seat smaller adults and is placarded to a total weight of 250 pounds. Typical empty weight was 1728 pounds and gross weight was 3,100 pounds. Fuel burn was 11 to 14 US gallons (42 to 53 L) per hour and advertised speed was 140-160 knots. New, they sold for $32,820 to $33,820.[citation needed]
The 260C introduced a new "Tiger Shark" cowling, max gross weight of 3200 pounds, cowl flaps, and an aileron-rudder interconnect. Cruise speed was advertised as 150-161 knots with fuel flow of 12.5 to 14.1 US gallons (47 to 53 L) per hour. To prevent possible aft center of gravity problems due to the increased gross weight and its fifth and sixth seats, the propeller shaft was extended. This moved the center of gravity slightly forward. With a useful load of 1427 pounds it has the largest payload of all of the Comanches except the 400. Often mistaken on the ramp for the 400 model, the slightly longer cowling includes a distinctively longer nose gear door, as compared to the B models and older versions. The 400 model does not have three side windows as with the B and C models. New, they sold for $36,550 to $45,990.
The Enemy's gate is down.
April 12, 2018, 03:54 PM
V-Tail
quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey: With 6 people, CG starts getting real important to watch. Especially with "personal items".
Everyone wants to stick stuff in the back, when they should be sticking stuff forward.
But, there are many important things to look over before kicking chocks, and all we know the most important thing was the one they overlooked.
If it's configured like the Cherokee Six's that I used to fly for an Air Taxi company in Puerto Rico, there are two luggage areas: one aft of the seating area, and one forward of the firewall.
EDIT: Oops! I took another look and it is indeed a Comanche. My remarks in the previous paragraph apply to the Cherokee Six, not the Comanche. Two different animals, entirely.This message has been edited. Last edited by: V-Tail,
הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים
April 12, 2018, 04:14 PM
JALLEN
quote:
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey: With 6 people, CG starts getting real important to watch. Especially with "personal items".
Everyone wants to stick stuff in the back, when they should be sticking stuff forward.
But, there are many important things to look over before kicking chocks, and all we know the most important thing was the one they overlooked.
If it's configured like the Cherokee Six's that I used to fly for an Air Taxi company in Puerto Rico, there are two luggage areas: one aft of the seating area, and one forward of the firewall.
One site I looked at said the 5th and 6th seats take up the rear baggage area, max weight of 250 lbs there.
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson
"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
April 12, 2018, 05:04 PM
mike28w
I flew in a 260C ( turbo ) , once.... Nice airplane. Fast and stable.
If I recall correctly, the two most rearward seats are quite small. Appropriate for children. hard to imagine adults sitting back there.
We'll probably never know how much fuel he had on board. I don't believe that it had a baggage area in the nose.
At this point, my guess is overloaded and when it didn't climb well enough, that he pulled it up and it stalled. Aft center of gravity would have prevented getting the nose down and recovering from a stall.
So sad....mike
April 12, 2018, 07:06 PM
Jager
Originally posted by V-Tail:
quote:
If it's configured like the Cherokee Six's that I used to fly for an Air Taxi company in Puerto Rico, there are two luggage areas: one aft of the seating area, and one forward of the firewall.
I knew I'd find you here.
April 12, 2018, 09:22 PM
220-9er
Not much detail in the article but I would guess weight and/or CG are the culprit. A plane that is really meant to carry 4 adults with 6 adults and it's easy to see a problem. I know, it may have had 6 seats but you need small people in the right places, everything calculated and loaded perfectly to get away with that.
Weight and CG envelopes are interesting. If you are in the middle of the envelope most airplanes are pretty forgiving. As you get closer to the edges, proper handling of the controls and configuration becomes more and more critical. If one gets far enough past the edges, it may not be possible to control the airplane. High temps and/or high density altitude reduce performance and make the situation more challenging.
As V-Tail mentioned, the registration issue may or may not be anything. In any case, it wasn’t lack of proper registration that caused the crash even if there was a real issue with the registration. From what I have seen though, if folks don’t keep their paperwork straight (and I’m not saying these folks didn’t) often take other liberties, which sometimes ends up biting them hard.
If I had to guess: The PIC asked too much of the airplane. When he wasn’t getting the performance he wanted instead of maintaining airspeed (and landing straight ahead if necessary) he tried to pull the airplane up and get it to do more than it could. The predictable result being a stall, an uncontrolled impact with the ground, and six fatalities.
April 12, 2018, 10:52 PM
Sailor1911
Wasn't lack of experience. Appears to be lack of judgment. Like JA said, High, hot and heavy = always bad. RIP. Always pilot error unless the A/C broke up in flight without pilot input! Just, saying.
Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark.
“If in winning a race, you lose the respect of your fellow competitors, then you have won nothing” - Paul Elvstrom "The Great Dane" 1928 - 2016
April 13, 2018, 01:13 AM
SigSAC
Very few general aviation airplanes can carry a full load of passengers AND fuel at the same time.
Based on one of the online databases, it appears that this plane was a PA24-260T (which essentially is a 260C with a "turbocharged" engine - in this case it is a turbo-normalized system).
This plane would not have had a forward baggage area.
My guess is that they were either over weight, out of weight and balance, or both.
The only airplane I ever flew that was able to fill up everything was a Piper Dakota (PA28-236). It had 4 seats and a 235hp engine. According to the calculations I was able to run, (and if I'm remembering correctly) you could put a 170 pound person in each seat, pretty much fill up the tanks, and put about a 90 pound picnic basket in the rear and before getting near limits.
April 13, 2018, 04:34 AM
sourdough44
I wonder if anyone had their mind into flying the plane? The party was supposed to be in Vegas, may of started earlier.
Sad event no doubt.
April 13, 2018, 05:39 AM
Blume9mm
Have no experience in this other than taking an air taxi from an island airport to the main airport in Belize two years back... plane probably sat 12 or 15 and when we went to board they then assigned you a seat depending on your size.
My Native American Name: "Runs with Scissors"
April 13, 2018, 06:06 AM
arfmel
quote:
Originally posted by Blume9mm: Have no experience in this other than taking an air taxi from an island airport to the main airport in Belize two years back... plane probably sat 12 or 15 and when we went to board they then assigned you a seat depending on your size.
We may have been on that aircraft flying to Ambergris Key. The Pilot had me sit in one of the front seats (I'm a big strapping fellow) and made his associate sit in the back of the plane.
