When he said 684 send me more cars, it gave me chills. I said the exact same thing two weeks ago (our dispatch is 684).

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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No reason to not just keep going.

Should have just driven it right back to the bus yard.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the person telling the bus driver to move the bus probably told the driver to "move up" or something similar without any specificity.

The driver, like most drivers, has probably been told to put the vehicle in park at the accident to await an investigation, notify the school of the accident over the radio, check on the students, and determine whether they need to sit tight or evacuate the bus.

Unlike those of us watching the video, the driver likely had no idea this was a police chase. They only know they were hit, and now the police are there yelling. They were then likely occupied doing those aforementioned things and not watching the police to see what they were doing outside.

So when it's all said and done, a "Hey, I'm going to need you to pull that bus up to that next driveway" would have probably gone a long way. Don't expect others to be able to read your mind or know more about what's going on than you do.

That bus likely has a camera system, so I bet we could hear exactly what they were told to do.

I would also go one step further and say that once the kids saw the cop pull his weapon out and continue pointing it at the crashed vehicle, those kids were not sitting there calm and quite.

the ensuing mayhem of the kids as they were watching the cop/crashed car scenario unfold only added to the bus driver's confusion, stress, and concern for the kids (ie., trying to figure out which kid(s) was/were hurt causing the others to be loud and/or otherwise screaming.

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Originally posted by egregore:

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posted by 92fstech: Idiot.

Easy there, killer. You weren't there.

Not for this one, no. But there have been numerous instances throughout my career where I've been in a similar situation to that cop and oblivious people have looked right at us and then proceeded to put themselves downrange. It's dangerous and makes the job infinitely more difficult. No matter how much I don't want to shoot a bad guy, I don't want to shoot an innocent person, or have them get shot on my watch, even more. When the lights are flashing and the guns come out, it's not time to rubberneck, hang out downrange, or stop to ask what's going on. Get Away!

Bullets are permanent. Ambulances can be met down the road, and paperwork can be completed later. Bus drivers manage kids and chaos on a daily basis. That's nothing new to them. My expectation of one in this situation is that they'd be pre-conditioned to respond more effectively than the average member of the general public. This one did not.

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My expectation of one in this situation is that they'd be pre-conditioned to respond more effectively

What about all of those highly trained police officers? Would one expect them to be more likely to come to those conclusions before a school bus driver?

Let's see:

Trooper on scene. Gun out. Instructions given to those on bus: "Ya'll sit tight. Get behind the windows". Sit tight from my perspective means don't do anything. Although I'm not sure that the glass that he instructed them to get behind would act as effective cover for a gun battle. It wasn't until 35 seconds after he drew is gun (and that's forever in a gun battle) that he told one of the kids to tell the driver to pull the bus down.

It then took 30 seconds from that command for the bus driver to move the bus the first time. This was almost two minutes before it the driver of the car being chased said there were guns in his car.

Second police car with two deputies arrives. Passenger has weapon drawn before they even know where the target is and stands right behind bus. Driver waits to identify target prior to drawing weapon and remains near their patrol car.

Trooper then instructs deputies to instruct the bus to pull further down almost 4 minutes in.

Third car with deputy arrives. "Where's he at, where's he at" with his gun out..... while standing directly behind the bus.

So out of the 4 LEOs present, only one of them had the thought that the bus probably shouldn't be there, shouldn't be used for cover, and shouldn't be a back stop, and that was after he initially told them to sit tight.

This then resulted in the bus pulling forward again, and blocking additional responding officers.

If we're going to talk about people being oblivious and putting themselves or others at unnecessary risk, then we need to include far more of those present at the scene aside from the bus driver. Agree? Because it's one thing to be involved in the moment, and another to judge a video of the situation from the comfort of our own homes.

^ I agree with that. Backup officers should have gotten the bus out of there as soon as they got there.

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posted by 92fstech: Not for this one, no. But there have been numerous instances throughout my career where I've been in a similar situation to that cop and oblivious people have looked right at us and then proceeded to put themselves downrange.

I have no objection to your points. It's the delivery, i.e., calling the guy an idiot, that set me off. You can't expect the untrained person who's had a life-or-death situation not of his own making suddenly forced on him to know what to do. A number of possible and plausible explanations have been posted already.

The kids on that bus will tell that story for the rest of their lives.

That driver was a total idiot that turned a simple ticket into a near disaster.

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Originally posted by egregore:

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posted by 92fstech: Not for this one, no. But there have been numerous instances throughout my career where I've been in a similar situation to that cop and oblivious people have looked right at us and then proceeded to put themselves downrange.

I have no objection to your points. It's the delivery, i.e., calling the guy an idiot, that set me off. You can't expect the untrained person who's had a life-or-death situation not of his own making suddenly forced on him to know what to do. A number of possible and plausible explanations have been posted already.

But that's exactly how you survive a life and death situation...observe, evaluate, and react appropriately. Maybe "idiot" was a bit harsh...perhaps "simpleton" would have been a better term (per Merriam-Webster "a person lacking in common sense"). I don't have any ill-will towards the bus driver...to the contrary, my greatest concern in this entire situation is the safety of him and the kids on that bus. It just frustrates me watching that cop out there by himself trying to hold a person with a gun in the vehicle who has just committed a felony at gunpoint while simultaneously trying to get the bus driver to move, but the driver is doing nothing to help the situation.

The cops aren't blameless here, either. The backup guys in particular should have managed the scene and gotten rid of that bus as soon as they got there. They weren't tied up dealing with the suspect like the primary officer, and were in a position to do that. Using a school bus full of kids as cover is no bueno. Ideally the bus would have been long gone before they even got there, though.

***Edited to fix an autocorrect typo

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 92fstech,

For anyone who is interested in a good, rational explanation, 92fstech, they couldn’t ask for anything better.

When I was in high school 60+ years ago the biology teachers told us that there were two natural reactions that animals exhibited when attacked: fight or flight. Much later, though, it was recognized that the third F was freeze, and I contend that among human beings it’s by far the most common reaction, at least initially.

I can understand that the bus driver’s initial reaction to the incident was probably, “Damn! That guy just hit me,” followed by confusion and hesitation caused by the arrival of the officer who has a gun out and giving commands. Plus there was no doubt prior guidance about accidents: “Don’t move the bus.” In addition we don’t know what was happening in the bus. Perhaps the driver got up to check on the children to ensure no one was injured. At some point, though, anyone who has the responsibilities of a job like that should be thinking, “Yeah, this isn’t the place to be,” and not have to be told to move away. And to top it off, once the bus was finally moved, the driver didn’t pull off the road to allow responding vehicles clear access: Anyone ever hear of “Pull over and stop to allow emergency vehicles through”?

I can’t imagine how much money I’d have to be offered to be a school bus driver, but it’s not unreasonable to expect that anyone who takes the job have some level of awareness and sense.

And by the way: Two wrongs don’t make a right. Regardless of what anyone else at the scene should have been doing, each individual has their own responsibilities. We don’t get a pass by being able to say, “Yeah, but he effed up, too!”
That’s another thing we should learn by the second grade or so, and no matter how satisfying it is to point out the failings of the people we love to hate such as the police.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

Tier 1 Operator
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Astronaut
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Airline Pilot from USA
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State Patrol
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McDonald’s Manager
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Bus Driver
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Walmart Greeter
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McDonald’s Employee
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Car Salesman

You maybe expecting too much from a school bus driver.

How about the flunky checking your receipt at Costco (the MOST useless job on the planet)?

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Car Salesman

Personally, I don't hold any occupation above or below that of any other. They all have an important role to play in our economy and system of government.

Why some professions are treated better or worse by others is beyond me.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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Car Salesman

Personally, I don't hold any occupation above or below that of any other. They all have an important role to play in our economy and system of government.

Why some professions are treated better or worse by others is beyond me.

I would say their required qualifications, job performance, value-add and behavior give them an earned reputation.

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Originally posted by a1abdj:

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Car Salesman

Personally, I don't hold any occupation above or below that of any other. They all have an important role to play in our economy and system of government.

Why some professions are treated better or worse by others is beyond me.

That would be my current personal frustration trying to buy car for the last week getting the better of me.

Other than my purposely placing car salesman at the bottom, the rest of the list wasn’t meant to be in order of value to society or relative meritorious worth, but rather in order of expectations that people in those occupations would be able to handle unusually high stress situations well.

I’m not knocking the bus driver at all.