Liveleak: NSFW - violence

"Estill, SC - Officer Quincy Smith of the Estill Police Department responded to a call of a man harassing people outside of a convenience store in Hampton County on January 1, 2016. He approached the suspect — Malcolm Orr — and repeatedly asked Orr to "stop," "come here" and "take (his) hands out (of his) pockets." Orr ignored Smith and kept walking away while talking on his cell phone. Then Orr turned around and shot Smith repeatedly. The entire incident — including its aftermath — was caught on a camera mounted on glasses that Smith had purchased himself."

Orr was sentenced to 35 years on Wednesday. It should have been 35 years dangling by his neck.

This video should be part of every police department self-defense course taught in America. It shows how fast it can go totally to hell.

Sickening but thank goodness there were people to help him instead of watching.

Officer Quincy survived.

They also caught the shooter and he's in jail.

For those who have experience would a taser work on heavy clothing like the shooter was wearing?

Kudos to that bystander. He totally kept his cool.

And the officer had the presence of mind to make sure that his glasses were secured to preserve the recording of what went down.

A tragic situation, but we found a couple heroes that day.

quote:

Originally posted by comet24:
Officer Quincy survived.

They also caught the shooter and he's in jail.

For those who have experience would a taser work on heavy clothing like the shooter was wearing?

I believe a Taser would have had a decent chance of working with that, if there was a good probe spread. Especially the newer versions. I'm a Taser instructor and have personally tased around 12 people on the street.

Here is the rub...

From the very short explanation of the reason for the contact, he may not have had enough to legally stop the man. Thus a tasing would have been a 4th Amendment violation, and in today's atmosphere, he may have been charged with assaulting the bad guy.

Isn't that crazy? That's what makes the job so damn hard.

This raises some delicate issues.

What obligation does a citizen have, walking along minding his own business, to stop at the request of an officer or anybody else?

How is one to know whether an officer has "enough to legally stop" you?

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
This raises some delicate issues.

What obligation does a citizen have, walking along minding his own business, to stop at the request of an officer or anybody else?

How is one to know whether an officer has "enough to legally stop" you?

Obligation? That's tricky, and depends on the state. Generally, none, absent an officer having reasonable suspicion or probable cause. But that is on the officer to prove in court. Just like a traffic stop, if an officer approaches you and gives you a clear command to "Stop", your failure to do so could result in an immediate reaction, possibly physical, if the officer thinks he has reasonable suspicion or probable cause to detain you. The officer may explain to you why he is asking you to stop when he is asking you to, but is not required to. An order to "Stop" can only be given when the officer has the same level of belief a crime has/is/will occur as they do when they turn on their blue lights to stop a car. So the two should be looked at the same.

When an officer turns on his lights/siren to stop you on the highway, how is one to know whether the officer has "enough to legally stop you"? It is assumed to be a legal order, with a guarantee of legal review if requested.

As far as knowing if the officer has "enough", it's one of those things that have to be argued in court, and is, with a decent success rate for those stopped. The legal level required is only reasonable suspicion, which means that the officers are not going to be correct all the time (Terry vs Ohio). [I know I'm responding to a lawyer, but a bunch reading may not know all this.]

People walking off and telling us what we can do with ourselves is common. Making them comply, whether through force or verbal commands, is only legal when there is RS or PC, and even when it is or may be, the decision to use force to gain compliance must be weighed against the rest of the situation. We let a lot of people walk off, because it's not worth it, these days. Just like traffic stops...a lot drive off, and we don't do anything about them. Any physical seizure is reviewed internally, and through the courts if necessary. Thus, it's pretty well understood with officers when they can do it, and good ones are careful to not cross the line, as it results in unpaid days off and potential civil rights violation lawsuits. And assault charges, these days.

If an officer tells a person to stop, and the person keeps walking, there is no violation of the person's rights. The person is only seized when they voluntarily stop, or the officer uses some level of force to stop the person. So in our video, even if the officer didn't have enough to stop the guy, the guy never submitted to the order, so no seizure occurred before the bad guy started shooting.

In years past officers were a bit more willing to get near the grey line with seizures (NYPD "Stop and Frisk", etc.). These days most officers on the street that I see have no idea what they are doing when it comes to Terry stops, as the environment has pushed away most proactive police work, which depends on knowing the intricacies of search and seizure law.

More info from the court case:

quote:

At about 11 a.m., Smith responded to a suspicious persons call at the Charles Party Shop along U.S. 321. A clerk told Smith that a man wearing camouflage and a red bandana tried snatching groceries from customers. Smith spotted a man matching that description walking away from the store along Railroad Avenue. Smith drove his patrol car a short distance toward the man, who was later identified as Orr. Smith parked and ordered Orr to stop. Orr refused and continued to walk away from Smith, holding a cellphone to his ear and keeping his right hand in his jacket pocket. Smith told him to take his hand out or he would “be tasered”. That’s when Orr brandished a 9 mm handgun and began firing, never taking the phone away from his ear.

http://www.scsolicitor14.org/n...7&newsCategory=press

I would think that would be sufficient to stop someone? If not, what more could you possibly need?

quote:

Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
More info from the court case:

quote:

At about 11 a.m., Smith responded to a suspicious persons call at the Charles Party Shop along U.S. 321. A clerk told Smith that a man wearing camouflage and a red bandana tried snatching groceries from customers. Smith spotted a man matching that description walking away from the store along Railroad Avenue. Smith drove his patrol car a short distance toward the man, who was later identified as Orr. Smith parked and ordered Orr to stop. Orr refused and continued to walk away from Smith, holding a cellphone to his ear and keeping his right hand in his jacket pocket. Smith told him to take his hand out or he would “be tasered”. That’s when Orr brandished a 9 mm handgun and began firing, never taking the phone away from his ear.

http://www.scsolicitor14.org/n...7&newsCategory=press

I would think that would be sufficient to stop someone? If not, what more could you possibly need?

I agree, that would be enough to stop someone. The original description wasn't very good in the article.

But we have to make decisions on things like this every day. Some times we decide to let it go, sometimes we decide to take action. I will not comment further on the officer's decision, as it appears to have been a legal order, and a scenario any reasonable officer would have done the same in. And most citizens calling 911 for the same thing would expect the officers to at least try to talk to the bad guy. I am very glad he survived, and wish he had the opportunity to return fire.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
This raises some delicate issues.

What obligation does a citizen have, walking along minding his own business, to stop at the request of an officer or anybody else?

How is one to know whether an officer has "enough to legally stop" you?

With respect to private citizens, they have no legal basis to order you to stop unless you are on their property or have a contract with them giving them that authority (e.g., a bail bond).

You have no legal obligation to stop for a police officer unless you have or are about to commit a specific crime.

Here's the rub.

How do you know if they have such a reasonable suspicion?

You can't, unless you committed a crime.

My approach is to determine if the order "Stop" was directed to me specifically by asking if order was given to me.

If not, I keep going.

If it was, I will stop, I will immediately ask why I am being detained and the basis of the officer's reasonable suspicion that I have committed or am about to commit a crime. If legally detained or arrested and asked, I will give me legal name, but under no circumstances will I provide any further information, save for asserting my rights under the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.

My wife's parents lived in Allendale, so I booked a pig hunt on the Bostich Plantation. Only two hunters there on this December morning, so the owner sent us to Estill for lunch on them. I ate at Gators Barbecue and had a real fine lunch as well as a culture shock. It was like stepping back in time 40 years. No pig was harvested but had a face to face chat with the biggest Whitetail buck I had seen in years.

A happier ending to this shooting would of course been the bad guy gone and the officer unharmed.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:


...I will stop, I will immediately ask why I am being detained and the basis of the officer's reasonable suspicion that I have committed or am about to commit a crime. If legally detained or arrested and asked, I will give me legal name, but under no circumstances will I provide any further information, save for asserting my rights under the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.

While that sounds like a fantastic idea, that not talking bit, and is certainly within your rights, it is a good way to land yourself in jail if the officer believes he has probable cause, when your explanation would show him that most likely you were legal and off you'd go on your merry way.

And if you were dirty...Officers have discretion. They usually exercise it when people are cooperative.

And in most States, private citizens have the legal Authority to stop and detain people committing certain crimes. Resisting the private citizen would not be a crime, unless the suspect assaulted them. Private citizens can use Force to detain and arrest for some crimes, again depending on the state you're in.

Generally speaking, how many LEO would have pulled your weapon vs. taser? After walking away, not stopping, not getting of his cell, not showing his hand?

Just curious.

After watching that video, kudos to the bystander. I would have looked for a first aid kit in the cruiser though. I thought it odd that the officer had a family or friend nearby asking God to spare his life. That's faith in action.

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:


...I will stop, I will immediately ask why I am being detained and the basis of the officer's reasonable suspicion that I have committed or am about to commit a crime. If legally detained or arrested and asked, I will give me legal name, but under no circumstances will I provide any further information, save for asserting my rights under the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.

While that sounds like a fantastic idea, that not talking bit, and is certainly within your rights, it is a good way to land yourself in jail if the officer believes he has probable cause, when your explanation would show him that most likely you were legal and off you'd go on your merry way.

And if you were dirty...Officers have discretion. They usually exercise it when people are cooperative.

And in most States, private citizens have the legal Authority to stop and detain people committing certain crimes. Resisting the private citizen would not be a crime, unless the suspect assaulted them. Private citizens can use Force to detain and arrest for some crimes, again depending on the state you're in.

What does "dirty" mean? Warrants? Drugs?

Just my worthless opinion:
Once Orr refused to stop for me, I would have backed away and kept him under surveillance until I had more help. Just the presence of a second officer MAY have deterred this. The time spent waiting and watching would also help build additional PC for a stop. And his prior actions at the grocery and his attempt to avoid you make this a valid Terry stop.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by chongosuerte:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:


...I will stop, I will immediately ask why I am being detained and the basis of the officer's reasonable suspicion that I have committed or am about to commit a crime. If legally detained or arrested and asked, I will give me legal name, but under no circumstances will I provide any further information, save for asserting my rights under the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.

While that sounds like a fantastic idea, that not talking bit, and is certainly within your rights, it is a good way to land yourself in jail if the officer believes he has probable cause, when your explanation would show him that most likely you were legal and off you'd go on your merry way.

And if you were dirty...Officers have discretion. They usually exercise it when people are cooperative.

And in most States, private citizens have the legal Authority to stop and detain people committing certain crimes. Resisting the private citizen would not be a crime, unless the suspect assaulted them. Private citizens can use Force to detain and arrest for some crimes, again depending on the state you're in.

What does "dirty" mean? Warrants? Drugs?

These, or some other clear violation of law. Officers can, and commonly do, overlook criminal violations during Terry or traffic stops when the party of interest is cooperative.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
Generally speaking, how many LEO would have pulled your weapon vs. taser? After walking away, not stopping, not getting of his cell, not showing his hand?

Just curious.

Under identical circumstances, today? No.

One problem with escalating in this case is not having a victim of a clear-cut crime. Sure, the officer could have legally tackled him and detained him until everything was figured out. He could have approached and wrestled his hand from his pocket.

But deploying his taser, or pointing his gun...IN TODAY'S ATMOSPHERE..could have gotten the officer in internal and/or legal trouble. 5 or 10 years ago...it would have probably been an immediate Tase.

I believe I would have done exactly what this officer did. This really is an every day thing. If we escalated them like we used to, we'd all be in jail these days.

It's wise to pick one's battles. An attempted larceny (though it would be an attempted felony larceny in NC) without a victim making a report and willing to prosecute, that's not worth pointing a gun at somebody acting like a jackass or tasing or tackling them. This officer was doing it the right way, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ59:
I thought it odd that the officer had a family or friend nearby asking God to spare his life. That's faith in action.

In the small towns I work and live in it would be odd for someone to not know the officer. Not sure how big the town in question is, but around here most everyone knows the deputies and officers - either went to school with them, related in some way, or just the fact that the officers patrol the same areas day in and day out and do a ton of community service.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:...If it was, I will stop, I will immediately ask why I am being detained and the basis of the officer's reasonable suspicion that I have committed or am about to commit a crime. If legally detained or arrested and asked, I will give me legal name, but under no circumstances will I provide any further information, save for asserting my rights under the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments.

Before I would go all "lawyer" on a cop, I would normally just see what they wanted. All they may be asking is where the nearest Krispy Kreme is.

Just think of how big of a dick you feel if you went through that whole monolog and the cop just wanted to know if you had seen some old guy that was missing, Silver Alert thing.

Tasers are kind of a joke. They work great on light clothing and on a suspect who isn't moving or fighting..... but then again if they aren't moving or fighting, what's the point? I have discharged my taser approximately 12 times. It was effective only 4 of those times.

I would say that the suspects clothing was too much to try a taser. I would have had my hand on my gun ready to go while trying to stop that guy (oh, and there was a very legitimate reason to stop him). His non-compliance, posture, arm position, all suggested that he was holding something in his pocket.